Thread: Stone +/- Paste + Leather / Mirror Edges

Looking for some guidance and opinions.

The last material to touch the edge of the blade before your face is the leather from stropping.

I'd like some input, opinions on some various thoughts around edge quality and what should be seen through a 30x loupe.

First, I've seen many honed edges that are mirror clean, barely see a scratch on them - I gather that is an ideal place to land - clean, polished edge - that's my goal.

Using the loupe, I'll come off a Nani 12k, then a finishing stone, or just the Nani 12k, and either hit the leather, or add Crox then .25 diamond on the back of a felt strop. Sometimes I just do crox, sometimes just diamond, as I experiment with different techniques.

Under the loupe, I'll still see striations, they properly extend uniformly to the edge and they are consistent. But I have yet to get that mirror like edge.

I have been trying not to use any pastes or crox after the stones, with the intent of wanting to feel the edge from the stone, not the paste or spray. But since leather is the last thing to "polish" the edge, does it make a difference then what type of finishing stone you use or if you use paste?

And finally, getting these spectacular mirror like edges, with virtually no visible striations under 30x? Is this chasing the edge, or something that should be aimed for? And finally, I'm curious if this mirror edge is achieved through some long laps on the leather?

I've been experimenting doing lots of laps on the leather - making sure that the edge is in contact with the leather, slow, long strokes. I've found if you try to go quick, it can make an awesome slapping sound and look cool, but how much of that time is the edge actually in contact with the leather is questionable. Lots of leather seems to definitely improve and shine up the edge as expected.

Apologies, covered a few areas, but opinions or tips would be great, and as always, thank-you.

I know you are against doing this.....maybe use a leaded linen strop?
(see Wolfpack's posting on this)

I'm still trying to figure out how to that perfect mirrored edge too.

I'm not sure if those "truly mirrored" edges are truly that way. The best angle when using my 60x loupe, makes my 8k look practically mirrored. It's usually just a faint color change between that and the 12k or maybe some edge improvement. I'll have to check, as I don't use it too much as my hands are shakey, but I think I can see striations with my 30x loupe. With proper lighting and angles, one can make a turd look like a snickers. ��

Assuming that A) You're removing all of the previous stones striations B) Have nothing contaminating the 12k (I've done it before) or the strop/finishing stone/pasted or unpasted secondary material/etc. C) Are using truly hitting all spots on the blade

EDIT: I think my GF is gifting me a USB scope for Chrismas. So I will try to illustrate this next week.

So, the goal is a super straight edge, the by-product is a stria free bevel.

Now, if you want to just have a particular finish stone on the edge, really a proper progression, removing each prior stria from the edge will end, with the finish stone on the edge. A light stropping will not change the edge, but only serve to lightly polish and more importantly re-align it.

.25 Diamond is probably not doing much for your edge and if you want to continue your current progression. Strop on Chrome Oxide after the Diamond.

Even though .25um diamond is smaller than .50um Chrome Oxide, Chrome Oxide will polish a .25 diamond edge. Chrome Oxide after a 12k Naniwa,(no diamond), is a very nice shaving edge.

But just for fun, take your razor to 12k, removing all sub 12k stria on the bevels.

Take a 12X3 inch piece of cardboard, inside of a cereal or shirt box. Paste 3-inch X’s of your favorite metal polish, Mothers, Maas, Semi Chrome work well for this. Probably 3M Marine metal polish, will also work very well, have not yet tried it.

Now on the edge of a counter or table, strop your razor 50-100 laps. This will remove all the stria leaving a mirror bevel, but will leave a chippy harsh shaving edge.

Joint the edge once, on the 12k and reset the bevel, in about 6-10 laps on your chosen finish stone. Strop 10-20 laps on leather and shave.

The only stria and the edge, is only from your finish stone.

Or strop on .50um CBN about, 50-100 laps after your 12k. You can shave off the .50um CBN, no leather needed. And you can strop on CBN daily.

It's all relative, and speculative, and in my opinion falls under the "chasing the edge" game. When I started honing, my highest grit stone was a norton 8k. In my mind, that was a mirror polish, with some minor visible scratches. Then came the 12k, and I thought surely that is the definition of a true mirror finish. Then came the gokumyo 20k, and again I was amazed at how much further the edge polished up.

Then I started into jnats. The hazy finish is what they are famous for. Then you hear stories of jnats that are super polishers, giving pure mirror finishes with no scratches. For the longest time I thought these were lies, or someone mis interpreting mirror for semi mirror etc. Then I found a jnat that goes to this level of polish. They exist, and they give as close to mirror bevels as any synthetic.

All that being said, I think there is no answer to your question. Chasing a mirror edge is not likely going improve your shave. If you don't have the right stones, it's just not going to happen. As far as what to expect with 30x magnification, that's going to depend on several factors as well.

The key is learning what scratch patterns your stones make, then you'll know when you've hit their limit. After a bevel set, try 1 lap and inspect, 5, 10, 20.... eventually it will not make any changes, and you'll know you've hit the limit on that stone. Again, it gets tricky though. Naturals and synthetics don't behave the same, as far as polished bevels go.

This is an interesting topic and I'm sure many great minds will share their thoughts as well. I look forward to seeing this thread progress.

There are no abrasives that produce scratch-free surfaces. Viewing angle, magnification (if any) and lighting play a huge role in how many scratches you will be able to see. With a 30x loupe you should still easily be able to see scratches left by a Naniwa 12k at the right viewing/lighting angles. At certain angles with certain lighting you will also probably be able to see a surface that looks scratch free. Judge the edge by the shave, not by how shiny or scratch-free it is. Once you get good shaving edges with that hone, examine the edge with your loupe and set a goal of making future edges from that hone look as similar as possible. Using the same lighting and viewing angles each time will help you immeasurably.

I get a pretty darned mirrored edge coming of of a 12k Nani. I would say, if your trying to get a good looking edge, forget the pastes at see how far your stones can take it. Under a 30 loupe the stria should be hard to make out coming from San 8k and the 12 should clean those up in 10-15 laps. Forget about "going too far on the stone" and see what happens. Keep in mind though that a pretty bevel and a great shaving edge are not always the same thing(but sometimes they are).

There can be a bit of wasted effort in trying to produce a bevel that is so highly polished that it ends up getting uglier after stropping on leather. For the most part, I closely watch my edges and bevels under the microscope while I am setting the bevel but use it much less after that. I may check for aberrant chips some time during the sharpening phase and usually will do a final check of the edge when I am finished, but for the most part I no longer care about the appearance of the bevels themselves after I have confirmed that they have met to form an edge.

Yes, with the right media, you can create a very highly polished bevel surface, but I don't care about that when I know that just a single stropping and shaving session will mar that pristine surface. The beauty should be in the shave, not in the reflection.

I wouldn't have thought that a mirrored bevel means anything...

I get mirrored edges of my Nakayama with a Koma slurry and if I remember correctly, from my Shapton 8,16k and Naniwa 10k.
But these are mirrored to the naked eye, not under a scope.

The only true mirrored edges I've seen are from using the nano sprays..

I think the mirrored images have more to do with the lighting than anything else. For those who are getting mirrored edges under magnification try moving the light source around and see if the edges are still mirrored.