Thread: Coticule driving me to drink!

Ok i will tell you an universal method that works on almost every coticule for finishing .
1 if you whant to use it strictly for finishing try to move the blade back and fourth on the stone Without lifting it , and without presure .It work 3 times faster on plain water and the edge get realy fine this way .
You might think of using lubricant as gliceryne or lather or oil . It will boost the finishing capabilitys of the stone to his limits .
Make a serie of 20 30 strokes , clean the blade and gave it 10 stroping motions on a padle strop - it will boost it this way
Gave a ome hours to try diferent things on the stone Once you understand how it works best it may became your favourite
Mainly the practice is everything here

On my coticules I can freely go back and forth between oil and water. I just wash twice with dish soap after using oil, then the stone is good to go and doesn't bead water next time if I use water instead. Yours may be more porous, but you might be able to do the same. That's why I mentioned trying just a little spot first and checking whether it will wash away clean and not bead water.

Another thing you might try is a few edge trailing strokes at the end as well. I have gotten some super edges on tough stones this way, but it's a thin line between great edge and wire edge - you have to nail it just right.

Try finish honing under running water! Many here don't care for Dr. Matt but I had a"Problem" Coti that I used his methods on to great results. Watch Matt's videos.

Slawman

Originally Posted by Slawman

Try finish honing under running water! Many here don't care for Dr. Matt but I had a"Problem" Coti that I used his methods on to great results. Watch Matt's videos.

Slawman

I've seen Dr Matt's videos actually. His series regarding 'problem coticules' actually helped me out with more than just coticules. Particularly the part where he shows close up the errant stria caused by circular motions. That led me to eliminating circles from my tool kit almost entirely, which in my humble opinion has increased my accuracy rating significantly. I don't dislike his videos but, like everything else I've taken in, some of his ideas and techniques work for me and others not so much.

Anyway, I messed with the coticule again today. Starting with a fresh Norton 8K edge on my GCW that shaved decent after 25 laps on linen and 50 leather. I took the Morley that Ive been using to 'burnish' the coticule and did another 600 or 700 laps, I kinda lost count. Then hopped back to the GCW for some water only laps. The first 50 pure water laps I did normal, but out of curiosity I did the second 50 with half of the coticule hanging from my fingertips like in Sham's video. Seems like the pressure I use isn't enough to tip the stone, so I pulled it back into my palm rather than risking dropping the rock for the final 60 laps. Stropped and shave tested, 25 linen, 50 leather. Definite degradation to the edge, tugged and pulled to the point of being uncomfortable. Also no improvement over the last test, so the coticule isn't getting any finer with treatment from the Morley.

So I took it back to the coticule for 160 laps on shave lather. Still no joy. It was better, but still a cut below a Norton 8K edge. I think it may be time to accept the fact that this coticule in particular just will not finish with water. Might try it again with honing oil, and if that fails then I'm just going to have to concede that it's an OK natural bevel setter and mid level polisher at best.

i had some time yesterday evening and played a bit with my belgian hones. as i have mentioned earlier, i don't believe that all coticules perform equally well and success is always guaranteed if you understand the stone. i think a fast stone is better than a slow one, a fine stone better than a coarse one. if your coticule delivers both, speed and fineness, with and without slurry, then that is a good stone in my opinion.

so i honed three razors on the three coticules of mine which i think are good stones. same procedure for every stone/razor: i dulled the edge on my thumbnail and restored the edge on a 5k naniwa superstone, maybe 60 laps. then created a nice slurry with a coticule slurry stone. then honed about 5 to 10 minutes while diluting the slurry down to almost water only. after that i cleaned the blade and the stone, put one layer of tape on the spine and did maybe 60 or so laps with water only.

result: one razor passed a HHT 4 right off the stone without stropping. all three razors passed HHT 5 after 12 laps on linen and 60 laps on leather. i shaved with one razor this morning and the shave was very close and very smooth.

bottom line: in my not so important opinion, there are good coticules out there, that are reasonably fast and fine and easy to use. and there are coticules out there (and in my drawer...) that are hard, and coarse, and slow. such a stone has to be "burnished" (an euphemism for "dulled") and can only be used with water and a lot of time. but heck, to simply polish bevels and refine an edge, any good arkansas, charnley forest, llyn idwal (!) can do the job, often for a fraction of the money spent for a coticule.

crazy thing is i own a pile of coticules but only one hard arkansas.

regards,
hans

Well, this stone isn't hard enough to be burnished. Not in the same sense as I've done with my Arkansas hones at any rate. Those are all polished to 8000 grit or better, then burnished further by running a hard tool over the surface a few hundred strokes. This coticule seems to be soft and...well, more coarse than I care for.

It isn't getting any duller/more burnished at this point. I can't imagine adding a layer of tape will do anything positive for me if the edge degrades from a Norton 8k. I was going to try with a layer of tape and some shave lather anyway, but I couldn't get the edge back on the Nortons. Probably just tired/frustrated and out of honing mojo after several hours tinkering with them. I think I'll try it with oil if I ever manage to get a good 8K edge back on the GCW, and if that doesn't work then it'll just have to be chalked up to being a bum stone with regard to finishing.

Well, my good luck with naturals was bound to run out somewhere. I was actually hoping for one that was much harder and slower, that behaves more akin to the stones I'm familiar with. Hard rocks that need to be burnished aren't unfamiliar territory. Soft ones that can't be burnished are.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well, this stone isn't hard enough to be burnished. Not in the same sense as I've done with my Arkansas hones at any rate. Those are all polished to 8000 grit or better, then burnished further by running a hard tool over the surface a few hundred strokes. This coticule seems to be soft and...well, more coarse than I care for.

It isn't getting any duller/more burnished at this point. I can't imagine adding a layer of tape will do anything positive for me if the edge degrades from a Norton 8k. I was going to try with a layer of tape and some shave lather anyway, but I couldn't get the edge back on the Nortons. Probably just tired/frustrated and out of honing mojo after several hours tinkering with them. I think I'll try it with oil if I ever manage to get a good 8K edge back on the GCW, and if that doesn't work then it'll just have to be chalked up to being a bum stone with regard to finishing.

Well, my good luck with naturals was bound to run out somewhere. I was actually hoping for one that was much harder and slower, that behaves more akin to the stones I'm familiar with. Hard rocks that need to be burnished aren't unfamiliar territory. Soft ones that can't be burnished are.

I know that bummed out feeling after hours of tinkering around. Trying different things and still coming out flat. I've got a keen kutter I have been fighting with for a week.

I hope oil improves the edge I know it did for one of my soft and slow stones. I still ended up selling it but it did help. If you must, sell it and look for another. Many of us do this until we find the one that works best with our: experience, techniques, senses and so on and so forth.. Look for a hard one or buy one off a straight razor user who knows their coti's. Generally requesting one from the mine won't get you what your looking for. They are great people to deal with no doubt but sometimes they come up flat on the requests.

I've spent hundreds on an 8x3" select grade and hundreds on specialty vein coticules only to use a 4x1-1/8" La Veinette. I only own that and a 7x1-1/8" out of 20+ rocks I used to own. They are the most consistent and get me to where I want to be no fuss or crazy techniques like rubbing wax on the hone.

Out of all those stones the worst type of for me personally and others would argue this is the soft and slow. Much harder to deal with than soft and fast or hard and slow. I know your plight. See what oil and a layer of tape does for you buddy.

Dr matt ,saw this from Alex Gillmore, from Japanstone - this one of his tactics ,for finishing on softer Jnat -It work , on every softer stone , on practice .Jnat , slate , coticule , thuringian ect.
The same thing is, if you take a big boul of watter and put a liquid soap in it - from those, with balsam for the hands .They are more slipery . Finish abbove the boul , and every few strokes , dipp the entire stone and razor , in the boul .
Ive try , this way and it works perfectly .
I think that the presure and the speed in the finishing stage, are crusial for the quality of the edge .
There is a big diference in the edge , when you finish , with fast strokes , and when finish with a low speed strokes .You wouldnt believe the diference , in the edge .Mainly in the comforof the shaving .
Every 30 strokes , clean the blade and strop it 10 times, at least - it will arange , the edge and will gave a better improuvement .
Basicly, im a shamed to admit , but ive have a veery good shaves from a coticules , before .But they , are not easy stones and you need practice and you have to know , what youre doing .
In the opposite case , you will beggan drinking ( Hankey Bannister or Chivas regal preferably )

Well, in retrospect perhaps it's unfair to say it's not getting any more burnished. There was less metal particulate after all those laps with the Morley than there was the first time, and that's with several hundred more laps. It seems like it is getting slower, though strangely enough not much finer.

And whatever it did to the edge of that GCW I have yet to repair...kind of has me wondering if some of those inclusions in the stone aren't the type that are detrimental to honing efforts. Very strange that the polish is good, but the shave is so bad.

I'll bring my honing oil home and give that a shot, then maybe running water/dipping the blade and hone in a bowl every few strokes. I think in all cases I'll slow down too. RusenBG made a good point there, I had never considered the speed of the blade moving over the hone. But if it's going slower as it travels over the surface any high sitting cutting material will likely do less damage and possibly not cut so deep.

Edit: Further examination tonight makes me wonder if I'm not damning a stone that is undeserving of it. The Morley was only in need of a touch up - if that. It was a good shaver, but sat for a while and I was going to give it a 'just in case touch up' on the Welsh slates. But considering it's seen over 1,000 laps on the same coticule I decided to scope out the edge and compare it to the GCW which I just finished honing on the Norton 8K. At almost 100x magnification the stria and polish look similar enough one might think it was the same stone. The Morley has a few miniscule chips here and there, but for the most part it doesn't look like it would be a bad shave...perhaps I would do well to strop it up and give it a test shave tomorrow when I play with the coticule again.

Originally Posted by Marshal

I've seen Dr Matt's videos actually. His series regarding 'problem coticules' actually helped me out with more than just coticules. Particularly the part where he shows close up the errant stria caused by circular motions. That led me to eliminating circles from my tool kit almost entirely, which in my humble opinion has increased my accuracy rating significantly. I don't dislike his videos but, like everything else I've taken in, some of his ideas and techniques work for me and others not so much.

I do dislike his videos. I dislike it when people claim to invent things when they had no role in them.

How patently obvious is it that circles leave "errant stria?" The purpose of circles is to remove steel faster. Obviously the scratches are going to be in all directions and that is why circles should be done during bevel setting when you need a lot of steel removal. He did not invent the concept of eliminating the scratches from circle honing with subsequent non-circular honing. Regarding finish honing done with water--yeah, that's been around for a while too.