Thread: Cleaning up and honing a new antique store find: A.J. Jordan

I don't think his coticule is tearing up the edge, I think we're seeing chips resulting from underlying issues. As far as the scratches go, the new ones made by the coticule seem to be ball park 8K, maybe a touch finer. So nothing wrong with that stone imo. Just the issues that present starting in the 4k photos.

Small tip for yours, and I thought this was kinda crazy until I tried it, burnish it. Make sure it's fairly flat and reasonably polished, then take a razor that needs work or something and just start doing laps. Mine took about 2,000 to stop seeing loads of metal swarf. Which is a good thing if you want it to finish. After that it kind of worked OK. Then I took it a step further and coated the stone with green chrome Ox and buffed the stuffing out of it with a dremel and a cloth wheel. Ever seen a coticule with a mirror shine? See post 53:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...e-drink-6.html

Before that stone might - might - have been a 4k. Now it's a pretty decent finisher. I also found that it doesn't like shave lather or water, even if it's running. It likes a 50/50 blend of mineral oil and mineral spirits.

Yep, thanks for the tips on some of these cotis. The first time I used it I worked up a nice slurry with the included slurry stone and began honing away. POP! CLICK! SNAP! I looked at the edge under a scope and it looked like I tried sharpening it on a piece of sidewalk outside. It was tearing chunks out of the edge, half the depth of the edge. Worst POS I have ever used on a blade. But your right, on a good day, when all the planets are aligned, they can be used after being burnished, polished, reburnished and then repolished. Honestly though, I don't even use it anymore and will throw it in the garbage someday.

“From the photos - it may be that the 4K is not getting rid of the 1K stria - in fact it may be producing some 1K "like" stria”

The problem I have with making that leap and putting it on the 4k, is the 1k photo is of a completely different spot, from the rest of the photos, and a 4k will not leave 1k stria. I doubt anything is wrong with your 4k that a lapping would not fix.

It is not uncommon for folks to think a higher grit stone is leaving deep stria, but, it is the higher finish, the shallower new stria pattern, makes the deep stria more visible.

You can ink the bevel completely, on any higher grit stone and do a couple light laps and any deep stria will show up easily. Do that on the 4k just before moving up, to make sure, all the deep 1k stria is removed.

You must compare the same spot on the edge. The 1k photos are the only ones from a completely different part of the edge, so the edge chipping may have been there all along.

Lap the 4k, especially the edges, (I like lightly round them). I have seen that kind of chipping, from a sharp corner or too much pressure. I would have jointed the 4k edge and re-set the bevel with light laps, probably 10-20 would have done it.

I would do at least 2 set of 20 circles, to lessen the deep stria then do X’s to completely remove 1k stria and lay a new 4k stria pattern.

So, before you blame the stone, give it a fair shake.

I have always believed the stone after the bevel setter, the second most important stone in the progression, calling it the Transition Stone. Where we are making a transition from grinding/shaping to polishing, and the most important impact that polishing makes is removing deep stria that can cause, chipping, through the whole progression unless removed.

You cannot polish an edge that does not exist. And the finish stone, no matter the stone is only as good as, the foundation the bevel and edge is built on. You can polish out stria on a 12k or a Natural, but you will have to put in the time.

Just bite the bullet, and max out the 4k. Really you should be trying to max out each stone, removing all the previous grits stria and getting the edge as straight as possible. It is surprising how straight you can get a 1k edge, if you try. Remember that is the goal of honing, to get the edge as straight as possible.

Use photos of your edges to learn what each stone is capable of, experiment and document for yourself what and how, technique, pressure and various strokes effect an edge.

BTW your scope takes nice photos, what brand is it?

For the most part I'm ptone to agree Euclid, but 3 rounds with the 4k to have it look no better - or worse - than it started? The only way I've seen that from one of my Norton 4ks was when it still had some of that trash surace skin on it. And he said he lapped that off already.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

The problem I have with making that leap and putting it on the 4k, is the 1k photo is of a completely different spot, from the rest of the photos, and a 4k will not leave 1k stria. I doubt anything is wrong with your 4k that a lapping would not fix.

I think you are probably right - but I've lapped about an 8th of inch off the 4K side - maybe more. I lap it before every honing session with 1000K plate. It has always felt very grainy to me compared to my other stones, and I often feel like the steel is scrapping across the stone. My lathe tools on Arkansas stone don't feel that rough! Lapping doesn't seem to improve it - I've used the Norton lapping stone, a Chef knives To Go 1000 grit plate (CKTG Combination Diamond Plate 400/1,000) and even used 2000 grit wet/dry on a surface plate to see if it was my lapping surfaces and no change - still gritty and rough feeling.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

It is not uncommon for folks to think a higher grit stone is leaving deep stria, but, it is the higher finish, the shallower new stria pattern, makes the deep stria more visible.

This makes a lot of sense to me!

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Lap the 4k, especially the edges, (I like lightly round them). I have seen that kind of chipping, from a sharp corner or too much pressure. I would have jointed the 4k edge and re-set the bevel with light laps, probably 10-20 would have done it.

I have - many times - maybe I haven't got it down far enough to rid of the roughness - I also round all the edges and corners of all my hones.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

So, before you blame the stone, give it a fair shake.

I've been blaming me for over a year now - so I want to try another 4K just to confirm it's me. I've done several great edges for myself and two of my three sons who shave with a straight on a single Coticule with a bevel set on a Naniwa 1K being the only departure from the Coti. I like to think it's not me at this point. But getting another 4K and giving it a try will confirm it one way or another.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I have always believed the stone after the bevel setter, the second most important stone in the progression, calling it the Transition Stone. Where we are making a transition from grinding/shaping to polishing, and the most important impact that polishing makes is removing deep stria that can cause, chipping, through the whole progression unless removed.

That makes perfect sense to me - I think you're absolutely right about that!

Originally Posted by Euclid440

BTW your scope takes nice photos, what brand is it?

I have a scientific scope I usually use but lighting is hard to get right on solid subjects. My sons bought me an OPTI-TEKSCOPE OT-HD Opti-Tekscope Digital USB Microscope Camera- Advanced CMOS Sensor, True High Definition Macro 200x Zoom Imaging -1600 x 1200 – Video – Superior Industrial Quality Base – 8 LED! | Microscopes

It has dimmer LEDs in the scope ring so lighting is less of an issue. I still take a secondary LED on a stand and move it around the razor until I get the angle right to see the stria. It's amazing how much difference lighting makes. I can fine tune the lighting to almost eliminate stria or fine tune it to make the stria stand out. I go for the latter and that's what you see.

Thanks for the all the feedback - you helped me out quite a bit a year ago and I think I've come a long way since then!

Adam

Originally Posted by Marshal

For the most part I'm ptone to agree Euclid, but 3 rounds with the 4k to have it look no better - or worse - than it started? The only way I've seen that from one of my Norton 4ks was when it still had some of that trash surace skin on it. And he said he lapped that off already.

Yeah - I've literally lapped the crap out of that stone. You can see from the side view picture above how much smaller it is than the 8K side. They were equal when I got it.

Adam

I've had the same thing happen to both my 1k/8k, 4k/8k sets. Ended up getting so frustrated with them I busted them in half and threw them in the garbage permanently swearing off Norton whetstones. Well we all know that they can be great so I ordered another set of two and have been somewhat ok with them. They will display the behaviour shown above but when they do I just soak them for an hour then leave them alone for a week to completely dry out. After that they seem to have evolved into correctly working stones again. If they do not, I'll hit them with the DMT coarse for awhile, do the soaking routine and try again.

Aalbina, you did not mention it, nor did anyone else, so I'll ask. Did you alter the pressure at all while using the 4k? You can use heavy pressure at first but, just as with the 1k, you need to lighten up the pressure as you finish with the hone. If you are using tape, then you need to use fresh tape at the end of the use of that hone.

For going forward, if you are not satisfied with the edge as it is, you will have to drop back down to the 4k and get a clean edge before moving up again.

Just re-hone the same razor on the 4k, see if the 4k will chip the edge, first, check the razor for warpage, by laying it on a stone, check both sides.

The problem is, the first photo, (pre-honing), shows edge chipping, as does the 1k photo on the left side. You said you had chipping on the 1k and jointed to straighten the edge. And the 1k photo are not of the same spot as the 4k photos. The 4k chipping, may have been there after the 1k.

It sounds like the problem is with the razor, not the stone.

Bottom line, 1k deep stria was not removed by the 4k, not an unusual. Just do more laps on the 4k and try to get the 4k edge as straight as possible.

If you are going to re-hone strop it on linen and leather with a bit of pressure, see if the edge micro-chips, if the steel is weak it may chip.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Aalbina, you did not mention it, nor did anyone else, so I'll ask. Did you alter the pressure at all while using the 4k? You can use heavy pressure at first but, just as with the 1k, you need to lighten up the pressure as you finish with the hone. If you are using tape, then you need to use fresh tape at the end of the use of that hone.

For going forward, if you are not satisfied with the edge as it is, you will have to drop back down to the 4k and get a clean edge before moving up again.

Yes - I vary the pressure as I go along on the 4K (actually on any stone). Round one was 40 circles and 40 laps down and back with a little pressure. 2nd round was 20 circles and 40 laps with little to no pressure, and the third round was no circles and 40 laps with weight of the blade only.

No tape on this one as there was very little hone wear. When I go back through this with this razor I will probably use 1 layer of tape. I realize that might me a few laps on the 1K but I'll ink the edge to see that I am reaching the edge.

Adam