That's what has me so stumped (the fact that everyone say how great and easy a stone it it) i've been shaving off the 8k for years and finally broke down and got the 12. It was after getting my Riga- Razor which was finished by the maker with a Naniwa Gouken 12k, But even with that the first shave was amazing and the second not so much. Always seem grabby and not as smooth.Been chasing that edge for months now. Not happy with my edges at all now.