Can I set a bevel with a 4K Norton?

Ok, everybody, please forgive me if this is an oft-repeated question. I have a straight that I would like to "work on" to develop my honing skills. (My sacrificial lamb, so to speak) I am not a complete newb, as I have sharpened knives, but straights are different.
Should I start with my 1K and follow with my 4/8K Norton and finish with my 12K Naniwa? I have some reservations about the using the 1K. It's super abrasive. Or, should I begin with the 4K? The Norton 4K really seems to have strong abrasive qualities. I also read recently right here a terrific post. (I am paraphrasing) "When you no longer abrade the tape while honing, you are ready to hone without tape". So, I plan on taping. :) I thought that was brilliant. I am prepared for a multitude of answers, but I am ready to be educated. Thank you in advance.

No longer abrade the tape? That would mean the spine would no longer abrade thus making the tape unnecessary. 1k knife stone is what I would use. Save the time and unnecessary wear on the 4k.

My guess would be that it really depends on how bad the bevel/edge is in the first place. It would be faster to reset the bevel with a 1k if the edge was chipped as it wears away metal faster than the 4K would. The downside is that beginners tend to be heavy handed and you may take away more metal than is necessary. The 4K will reset a bevel at a slower pace so you need patience. It will allow you to gradually get to where you want to go possibly avoiding removing more metal than needed.

It really is a personal choice.

I’m with Bob. It does depend a bit on the razor. Does the razor have a bevel established? Razors that have been heavily restored and no longer have the reminants of a bevel require a lot more material to be removed. In the case of the restored razor, I would say that honing is more restoration bevel setting, and takes a lot more time. If you are simply resetting and established bevel then the 4K is a good way for a new person at razor honing to sneak up on the edge.
When I honed my first few razors I put so much pressure on the spine that it wore through the tape pretty fast. The wear on the tape is a pretty good indicator where you are applying the pressure. The spine is to touch the hone, but the pressure should be on the edge. I agree that tape is good for new guys. Guys that have been around and can hone without destroying the geometry of the razor, tape is likely optional.

I know I have seen something like that someplace :hmmm::shrug::thinking::confused:


Oh yeah, there is a small thread about doing something like that :D

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...on-2012-a.html

you could use a Nani 12k if you choose to,, but I think a good 1k will get there quicker

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I know I have seen something like that someplace :hmmm::shrug::thinking::confused:


Oh yeah, there is a small thread about doing something like that :D

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...on-2012-a.html

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A thread where folks sign up to willingly kill their edge???? That's hard to wrap my head around, but hey, maybe it isn't so bad if you are really good at restoring the edge.

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Originally Posted by lightcs1776

A thread where folks sign up to willingly kill their edge???? That's hard to wrap my head around, but hey, maybe it isn't so bad if you are really good at restoring the edge.

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Sometimes, killing an edge is the only way to remove previous honing sins and start over afresh. Sometimes, it can be overkill and that’s where looking carefully at the edge and knowing what you are doing and seeing is so important.

If you aren’t sure, take a picture and ask for help. It can save a lot of pain.

If you have an edge with chipping, sometimes killing the edge first is the quickest way to insure you get a decent bevel.

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Originally Posted by DZEC

Sometimes, killing an edge is the only way to remove previous honing sins and start over afresh. Sometimes, it can be overkill and that’s where looking carefully at the edge and knowing what you are doing and seeing is so important.

If you aren’t sure, take a picture and ask for help. It can save a lot of pain.

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Originally Posted by RayClem

If you have an edge with chipping, sometimes killing the edge first is the quickest way to insure you get a decent bevel.

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Thanks for the explanation.

Sometimes learning is about doing and experimenting.

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Originally Posted by lightcs1776

A thread where folks sign up to willingly kill their edge???? That's hard to wrap my head around, but hey, maybe it isn't so bad if you are really good at restoring the edge.

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LOL :)

Let me give you a demonstration of just how fast an edge can be killed and then brought back at that level of grit (Chosera 5k)

Granted I have honed a few razors


watch how fast it goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMchDtXzUO4

Its really been answered. IMO, tape, take a close look at the edge, if you see chips or shiny spots when looking straight down on the edge then go with a 1k. Kill the edge lightly. This will help in bringing the edge back all together and not one spot at a time. If you go with a 4k you will be having to clean your stone a lot as it will load up a lot and in turn wear the stone a lot more than needed. Check your tape often. If you see it getting worn, retape. Feel what is going on, listen to what is happening. Watch the bevel closely develope. A loupe is helps to see.

Get a start and ask questions. Lots of posts on this already but we will help you to get a start. Just keep in mind that the bevel set, the first step in honing is the most important.

If the bevel is present and basically sound, sure. I do light bevel work on full hollows with a Shapton Glass 4k fairly frequently - that’s exactly what I bought it for.

But not all ‘as found’ bevels are equal - if you have to remove chips, devil’s spit, pitting, etc it’s usually better to drop down to a 1k or 2k stone. Why? Finer stones are more expensive and slower than coarse ones, so if you have to do a lot of work on a 4k vs a little on a 1k, the 1k followed by the 4k is a better choice - providing that you have the 1k.

Cheers, Steve

“Can I set a bevel with a 4K Norton?”


Yes,

You can bevel set on a 12k. It all depends on the condition of the edge.

A 4k is more aggressive than most folks think. If you are just touching up an edge an 8k might do it.

Most of the razor in my rotation will never see a 1k again, as long as I own them.

Here is an old post on setting a bevel and finishing on a 12k, even removing a small chip. (12K Chip Removal/Bevel Setting)

And here is a good post with great micrographs of a new honer going from bevel set to finish.

Second try at Honing. So you will know what you are looking at through the scope.

Post a pic of the razor.

That was a great read/thread on the 12k Marty. Simply amazing you could get a 12k to work that way. Makes me rethink about my honing

One drawback to me of using the 12k is I use the wet thumbnail test to verify. 12k bevel doesn't bite like the 1k. That's why I always use the 1k.

No, the 1k is way more toothier. A 1k edge is ragged, a 12k should be smooth laser straight.

You have to calibrate your test, to the edge you are testing. The point of the 12k bevel set is, that the 12k is more aggressive than folks think and for most “touch ups” an 8 or 12k is really all you need.

Maybe. But for what it's worth it doesn't take much to set on a 1k. And then go thru the progression. I use spray and go chosera. What's the downside? To me none. I don't think any man can wear out a razor in a lifetime or 2.

If you know how to hone a razor, none really.

But if you are new to honing, there are tons of examples of excessive abuse.

The Op’s question was, “Can I set a bevel with a 4K Norton?”
And the answer is yes.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

If you know how to hone a razor, none really.

But if you are new to honing, there are tons of examples of excessive abuse.

The Op’s question was, “Can I set a bevel with a 4K Norton?”
And the answer is yes.

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So for those of us starting out with films, is it better to start with a 5 micron film, which is equivalent to Primo's 4K Norton, to help in being overly aggressive with setting the bevel or would you suggest the 14 micron (1200 grit equivalent) for bevel setting if we have both?

5um is about 4k, .5um is 30-50K, watch that decimal point. Grit charts are kind of all over the map.

5um (4k-ish) or 3um (8k ish) are good starting points, for a refresh. It all depends on the edge condition.

Film is also more aggressive and durable than folks think. Your substrate can make a big difference, if using glass, lap it flat with some 220 or a diamond plate. Glass is not dead flat.

Dead flat is not critical, but flat will put more grit in contact with the razor and make it more efficient. And it just takes a couple minutes.

You can do a full bevel set on film, or for $20 buy a King 1k.

I have set numerous bevels on the 4k side of my trusty Norton, especially when I was starting out, using Lynn's circle method. I used to have the problem of getting close to a bevel on some of the softer Sheffield smiling blades, then somehow I would lose it, blow past it, or whatever it was I was doing. I found that if I got close on the 1k and continued "sneaking up on it" on the 4k, it fixed the problem (usually-sometimes it still happens).

But I have also set them from scratch if the edge was basically sound and chip-free, no frowns, etc.

+1 on the king 1k. Get that and 325-600 grit diamond plate for flattening and refreshing hones, also good for heavy bevel work and knives. If you see yourself keeping any kind of interest in razors and honing it would be money well spent and cheaper in the long run than setting bevels with film. After the bevels are set it shouldn’t take too much on your film progression to get a comfortable shaving edge as you learn what you’re doing.

Euclid and gssixgun both post some really useful and informational links and videos.

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Originally Posted by lightcs1776

A thread where folks sign up to willingly kill their edge???? That's hard to wrap my head around, but hey, maybe it isn't so bad if you are really good at restoring the edge.

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I think the point was to showcase via sample size just how versatile those white & yellow bricks most of us have can be. It's also a perfect example that honing can be as cheap and simple or as expensive and complicated as we choose to make it. I like to point newbies back to that thread so they can gain an idea what a Norton 4/8 is capable of, and what kind of results they should be aiming to achieve from it.