Thread: Figuring out some stones and pasted strops

That's a 6000 Japanese water stone and 20,000 Jasper.
The point I was trying to make is that you don't need a full set of progression.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I see now that they are of the same spot. Don’t know what is going on with your paste but it is not as rated.

I strop on .50 um Diamond paste and it will almost completely remove all the stria on a bevel visible at 400X, in about 50 laps after 20 laps the edge and about a 1/3 of the bevel is stria free.

I see that all the deep stria was on the bevel even at the Ark photo, the ark added more, fine stria that covered the deep stria. The diamond removed some of the fine stria and made the deep more prominent.

What is the diamond pasted on? I have had the best results on cotton or poly canvas, no need to over paste, 3 inch X’s are plenty.

Get a $20 King 1k or spend more time on the 4k to remove all the deep stria.

While the paste did not remove the deep stria, it is polishing near the edge and the edges look straighter. Experimenting with substrates may produce better results.

I should have included the lower power images in the first post - sorry. I was kinda focused on the 7/3 mic images and didn't think to make the correlation to the Ark clearer.

I'm really thinking the pastes don't have grit. I'm considering using them like a polish on some mild steel to see if they'll even make a scratch pattern. I'm about 95% certain they're junk.

The pastes are on hardwood paddle strops with short nap suede. I've been sticking with paddles as I'm more comfortable with them at the moment.

Hadn't looked at the King 1K, was kinda focused on Norton. If it performs similar, it sounds like a bargain. Thanks for the recommendation.

Based on your feedback and some extra reading of old posts, I think I'll focus on perfecting my 4/8K edges and slowly work in the Ark. The shaving off a 4K challenge sounds enlightening. Question: I have been preferring the near wedge grinds, but also have several hollows that are pretty nice. Would it be better to work on a near wedge or hollow? Or both?

"Based on your feedback and some extra reading of old posts, I think I'll focus on perfecting my 4/8K edges and slowly work in the Ark. The shaving off a 4K challenge sounds enlightening. Question: I have been preferring the near wedge grinds, but also have several hollows that are pretty nice. Would it be better to work on a near wedge or hollow? Or both?"


Jelly-This sounds like a good plan. As others have said, simplicity and eliminating variables are your friends in honing. That 4/8k will do the vast majority of any honing you need to do barring ebay rescues, and even makes a pretty good finisher given enough practice. I have gotten many good shaves off of my Norton 8k, tweaked to the max and stropped well.

That said, I now usually finish on a well-burnished 8x3 surgical black Arkansas after a Nani12 as my last synthetic, and usually get stellar edges. And I rarely drag out optics, honing mostly by feel and various tests at each stage.

Having said that, I will often stop at the 8k stage, strop and shave, and often wonder during that test shave, "Why do I go beyond this? It's a fine shave!"

That 8k level is like Do Not Pass Go in Monopoly. Once you max it out, then all the tantalizing naturals will open up and show you just how far you can go with an edge if you take your time. But as has been said on here many times, unless you're getting at least passable shaves from that level, you're wasting your time with anything up the progression. Have fun-Aaron

edit: Oh, and I started honing mostly on the smiling Sheffields I still mostly prefer, and had to learn the gymnastics of getting those honed, though a straight edge hollow German blade is usually much easier to hone (and learn on).

Originally Posted by bouschie

That's a 6000 Japanese water stone and 20,000 Jasper.
The point I was trying to make is that you don't need a full set of progression.

Ah, I get it...kinda missed that

I would have thought that was to big of a jump, but clearly it works well.

The more hollow blades are easier to learn on when honing.

Late to the party, but what magnification level are we looking at here? I ask because typically my finishing Arkansas stones do not leave stria like that. They look more akin to your 3 or 1 micron photos.

Fun chart:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...w1OJ5SDjQK4W2X

The grit rating you got for your Arkie is the smallest chunk that would break off of it. But Arkansas stones dont really sharpen by releasing a slurry like a silica packed mud slate would. They do so by being [B]much[B] harder than the material rubbed against them and making it abrade, rather than abrading themselves. So you can tune the surface and get a much finer result from them than their grit rating would imply.

Your pastes seem to be decently uniform. They're not creating new stria. The concern with those is generally that lower quality pastes will have aberrant grits in the mix that don't match the estimated grit rating. There's always a bit of a range, there's no way to guarantee 3 micron paste has nothing but 3 micron grit. Some will be larger, some smaller, but a few random 10 micron grits can really ruin a shaver's experience.

The images were captured with a 4X objective and the view through the ocular is 40X. It should be similar to the camera, but with cropping/resizing/different screen sizes...could be higher or lower. I guess the short answer is around 40X.

I was trying to learn my equipment better and look at where my stones were relative to each other. More or less got it figured and have been playing with my black ark. I've gotten some really nice edges and some not great edges. Still need practice with that stone...pressure, laps, etc.

Novaculites are a unique stone in that the grit size does not matter all that much to the finish they are capable of producing. As said, Ark faces can be finished to produce a finer finish than the grit size would suggest.

With synthetic water stones, the binder breaks away with use and releases new fresh grit, so you will get a consistent stria pattern of the same grit. An Ark face can be polished, so the tops of the grit are flattened and do not release but polish the metal, they are not cutting to the grit size.

Here is an interesting video by Robin Renzitti (

Robenz, Precision Ground Toolroom Stones

) he machines dual grit Norton course and fine India stone (150 and 400 grit Aluminum Oxide), flat with a diamond wheel, surface grinder and produces near mirror finish on steel with a 400-grit stone.

The finish of your Ark can be manipulated by how the face is finished and what you are using as a lubricant or dry. Burnishing will cause the stone to polish steel, also you can use much more pressure with Arks than you can with synthetics and still get a finer finish. Because they are not aggressively cutting, you need more laps or a finer pre-finished edge.

Where most folks have issue with Arks, is either the stone is not prepped, (lapped and burnished) and will not perform to it’s full potential or the razor is not pre-finished to a high enough level and a burnished Ark is too big of a jump.

A good solution is to finish one side to 600 grit and burnish the other. One side will cut finely and the other polish. Where Arks shine is as finishers, they can polish and straighten an edge, the difference is not seen in a stria pattern, but felt in the shave.

As you compare stria of various abrasives and technique also compare what they do to the edge. Compare a 1k and 8k edge, as the stria pattern get smaller the edge gets much straighter. While the bevels of a Jnat or Ark edge do not look finer, their edges are much straighter. The goal is a straight edge.

A stria free pasted edge is super straight, but may not last, or can be too sharp.

I must plead ignorance here because I am way out of my depth in terms of what you gentlemen are discussing but I do have some observations. It occurs to me that like becoming an aficionado in any pursuit edge refinement can quickly turn into chasing the dragon. To quote King Solomon from Ecclesiastes (not from a religious aspect but from a philosophical standpoint) "...for with much wisdom comes much sorrow. The more knowledge the more greif." And "...the more the words the less the meaning and how does that profit anyone?" Not to imply that this is a meaningless pursuit but to say that the more we expect the more it can sometimes escape us. I do not claim to be an expert or connoiseur (I did at one time. Now I realize how much I don't know) but i am very interested in tea and know as much as I have learned about it... probably. Early in my pursuit of it I found probably the first fine tea I had ever encountered. They had testers which were heavenly to the nose. High elevation grown single estate Himalayan teas from Sikkim, Darjeeling and Antu and Sri Antu in Nepal. If I recall they were between $60-$70 US/lb to which my reply was "that's nice but there is no way I am paying that much for tea." Eventually they went on sale (I must not have been alone in my assessment) so I bought several tins at less than half the original price. By the time I was running out I would have gladly paid triple...quadruple probably the retail price if I could find them again. That was kind of a long explanation to say that my point is now I can't turn back. My tastes have irrevocably changed. Now I would think nothing of spending $500/lb for the right tea. Himalayan teas grown over 6000 feet or Fine Formosa oolong for instance. We do it to ourselves when we set about seeking the minutiae.
Perhaps my ignorance is bliss but I seldom hone past the 4k/8k pyramid progression. Sometimes I find going to the 12k not only does not improve the shave but perhaps hinders it. I'm sure some of you are shaking your heads now and saying "poor ignorant fool." But I am happy with my results. Perhaps more so than some of you. I am not scoffing or belittling your pursuit. Simply saying that from someone who is and has been in a similar situation in another venue my compliments and corresponding condolences go out to you because as previously quoted "...the more wisdom the more grief." I can relate to your joy and your pain. Good fortune to you all and I hope you find more joy than frustration in your pursuit

Edit: also I would trade minor organs for the right Hao ya A Keemun

Euclid440: Cool video, thanks for posting it. I'll watch it in detail this weekend. My ark is prepped as you recommend. Flattened to 600 grit, one side burnished. I'm going from the 8K to the burnished side with the old school Smith's honing oil - it's just thin oil. I've gotten some really nice edges and a couple that were ok, but a little tuggy and not as comfortable. My inconsistencies are with the near wedge grinds. I'm pretty sure it's me. I haven't tried the unburnished side yet. Maybe 8K to unburnished to burnished? I'm using 100 to 150 strokes with fairly heavy pressure at the start and lightening to just the weight of the razor at the end. I know I'll sometimes lift the edge on the lighter strokes. Again I think more practice will get me where I want to go. But tips are always appreciated.

PaulFLUS: I get what you mean. I've had this stone for decades. Used it for my woodworking tools. Got back into straights fairly recently and found out it could be a good stone for razors. I'm fine with the shave off the 8K, but the good edges I've gotten from my ark feel just a bit smoother. I also just enjoy sharpening/honing and want to get the best result I can from the tools I use. I'm not really chasing the "perfect" edge, just the best I can do with this stone.