Thread: Figuring out some stones and pasted strops

I started self teaching myself to hone razors prior to joining this forum. Most of my info was cobbled together from some conflicting internet readings and my experience in knife and carving tool sharpening. I had a black Ark and read it was somewhere around 1200-1500 grit, so I discounted its use because the much higher grit 4K/8K Norton seemed to be a well recommended choice. I also had a synthetic ruby stone of unknown grit that I used as a bevel setter. Based on some grit/micron comparison charts (reliability of this information unknown), I added three paddle strops with 7, 3, and 1 mic diamond pastes as a less expensive alternative to the higher grit stones. I went this route because I figured the steel didn't care what was removing the metal. I also didn't want to spend a lot of money to find out it didn't work well. I had a local knife shop hone up a razor I was familiar with for comparison.

Since joining SRP I've upped my skills and get better edges than the local knife shop (that bar may have been a bit low in retrospect). I recently added a shave ready near wedge razor from a member here which confirmed I need to work on my edges. I also learned a black ark may well be a great stone to add into my set. So, I set out to compare striations from my black ark and the ruby stone to get a better idea of where they fit. I decided to add my strops just to see if it would all fit together.

The blade I'm using is a Fredric Reynolds 13/16 near wedge with a smile. I'm about 95% sure this blade will not live again due to pitting along the edge. Some chips are also present. I figured this was a good test subject for practice of several skills moving forward. My goal is not to make this sharp, but to compare striation patterns and see change between the stones/strops. The bevel is not fully set, but set enough to get good contact with the stones and see changes. It has been on the ruby stone through 8K. and through the black ark and strops three times since I came up with a more consistent approach to lighting and photography. Three layers of tape was used on the spine for both honing and stropping to be as consistent as I could. Each stone was freshly flattened and each strop freshly pasted.

My plan is to post images along the way for some feedback. I took images of the ruby stone and 4K/8K but changed my lighting set up while working with the black ark and strops. I'll post those as I work my way back down in grit.

The black ark and strops:
The striae patterns were changed from the black ark to the 7 mic strop, but didn't change on the 3 mic strop. I used around 400 laps on each and added an extra 400 to the 3 mic when I didn't see a change. Still no change. The area I'm looking at is about 1/3 of the way back from the toe on the front side of the blade, so I should be making good contact. I find it hard to believe I missed contact after that many laps. I will occasionally lift the edge on the away stroke, but feel pretty confident of my contact with the pull stroke (front side down for a right hand). So am I wasting my time with the 3 mic paste? Or is it just going to take a crazy amount of stropping? The paste I got is a relatively cheap product from Amazon. Maybe it just doesn't have any actual grit? I'm a bit stumped so any advice is appreciated.

Edges are at the bottom of the images.

Black ark


7 micron


3 micron


Thanks in advance for any help.

You are making this way more complicated, than it needs to be. What is the goal, to learn to hone, or to compare grits from unknown grit sources?

Simplify, and use only known quantities, remove all unknown variables. If you don’t know a stones grit, don’t use it.

First learn to hone using quality synthetic stones, of know performance and grit. Once you have mastered honing and understanding what you are looking at and know that the progression works and will actually hone a razor, that you can shave with, then add natural stones to the mix and compare results to what you know.

Start with a quality hollow ground razor that will take an edge. You can buy a good razor from eBay, any antique store or in the classified for $20 or less. If you try to learn to hone on a, difficult to hone razor, how will you know if a problem is the razor, the stone or your technique. Eliminate as many variables as possible.

All diamond paste is not alike and different paste will perform differently on different substrate. In short eliminate all the “Diamond” strops. Any thing larger than .50um, 20-30,000 grit is too large for razors and if the diamond is not quality, can lead to a micro chipped edge. So, for now eliminate the diamond. BTW, 400 laps are way too many laps. It is impossible for you to have done 400 pasted laps and there to be no change to the stria pattern. Keep better track of your photos.

If you are going to make photographic comparison, photograph the same area each time, mark the bevel so you have a registration mark. Wipe the bevels with a clean paper towel and a dry microfiber. This will eliminate all the horizontal swarf marks on your bevel, so you can better see the stria.

Which quality synthetic stones do you have available? And what is the goal?

You just got that razor from me and liked the shave. My honing instructions were a simple process. Only one low grit for bevel set. 6000 water stone. 20,000 Jasper. Then strop linen with Theirs Issard strop paste. Finish on leather. I believe in the "KISS" method. Keep It Simple St???d. Works for me.

The black Ark "grit" rating as given is not the same as a JIS rating, the latter pretty much being the default on the forums. I'm not one to assign grit ratings to natural stones, but a hard black Ark should be used as a finishing stone, or at least equivalent to the micron ratings of the pastes you mentioned. With a black hard Arkansas, a lot has to do with what has gone before. For example, if you were to use a JIS synth progression on up to ~12k, then a smoothed black hard Arkansas used afterwards might be useful to temper what otherwise might be a overly keen edge. Conversely, if you were to use a smoothed black hard Arkansas after a soft Arkansas, a trip to a strop loaded with the Solingen red paste (nominally rated at between 2-4 microns) might be beneficial afterwards, later touched up with the Solingen black paste (nominally rated at between 0.5-1 micron) afterwards.

To restate: off the high-end synths, my opinion is that a smoothed black hard Ark acts like a steel or a strop to restore the edge, the result being perceived as very, very fine; off a soft Ark used in a dedicated Arkansas progression, the result is more aggressive, requiring the use of the pastes mentioned to further refine the edge.

I can see you're viewing the same spot on the bevel. But using the coated stops that much is just crazy. Diamond strops only need 15 to 25 laps to change how it feels to the skin. Smooths the edge. I found when using them it was just a few stokes on the .5 and same on the .25 and done. That was after a 12K stone.
Keep in mind that strops work the very edge, not the flat of the bevel as much. Playing with odd stones of who knows grit range is hard to understand. You can find some naturals that will scratch the bevel, but feel nice. Others that scratch the bevel and make an edge jagged and course. Also, some that make a bevel look good but damages the edge. Playing/experimenting with odd naturals is for the pros. I wouldn't try it myself. You need to really know rocks, stria, edge uniformity and shave test results very well before doing that.
Good on you to try but stick with the synthetics for a few years first before diving into the pro level of experimenting.
Marty will guide you as he enjoys helping folks to learn to hone, but you have a lot to learn before going where you are going.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

You are making this way more complicated, than it needs to be. What is the goal, to learn to hone, or to compare grits from unknown grit sources?

The low grit stone isn't complicated. It will set a bevel and the Norton 4K will remove it's striations. The plan is to get a Nani or Chosera 1K in the future, but for now it is working and I was curious what the pattern looked like. The black ark I plan on using as a finisher, just a first play with it. The only reason I even included the image was to show the change of pattern after the 7 mic strop.

Simplify, and use only known quantities, remove all unknown variables. If you don’t know a stones grit, don’t use it.

First learn to hone using quality synthetic stones, of know performance and grit. Once you have mastered honing and understanding what you are looking at and know that the progression works and will actually hone a razor, that you can shave with, then add natural stones to the mix and compare results to what you know.

Start with a quality hollow ground razor that will take an edge. You can buy a good razor from eBay, any antique store or in the classified for $20 or less. If you try to learn to hone on a, difficult to hone razor, how will you know if a problem is the razor, the stone or your technique. Eliminate as many variables as possible.

I have several good quality razors from hollow to near wedge, all but two I have honed and shave with regularly. Some of my edges I was quite happy with, some not so much. The two I have not honed are my benchmarks. The blade I recently got from Boushie just helped confirm my feeling that I could do better.

All diamond paste is not alike and different paste will perform differently on different substrate. In short eliminate all the “Diamond” strops. Any thing larger than .50um, 20-30,000 grit is too large for razors and if the diamond is not quality, can lead to a micro chipped edge. So, for now eliminate the diamond. BTW, 400 laps are way too many laps. It is impossible for you to have done 400 pasted laps and there to be no change to the stria pattern. Keep better track of your photos.

I agree, 400 is ridiculous. I only did it to eliminate any possibility I hadn't stayed on the grit long enough. This is not what I would typically do, but I'm not planning on shaving with this and can't really hurt it.

If you are going to make photographic comparison, photograph the same area each time, mark the bevel so you have a registration mark. Wipe the bevels with a clean paper towel and a dry microfiber. This will eliminate all the horizontal swarf marks on your bevel, so you can better see the stria.

The area I photo'd was registered based on nearby chip and pit formations (see images below). The horizontal "marks" are finger oil I missed after wiping with paper and clean swabs. I saw it and decided it didn't affect the point of the images, so I left it. I should have used acetone,but again it doesn't obscure the marks in a relevant manner.

Which quality synthetic stones do you have available? And what is the goal?

Norton 4K/8K. I assumed pastes of known micron ratings were a known, not a variable. Based on micron/grit charts (yes there is a wide range published) I was confident the 3 and 1 mic pastes would be at or greater that the 8K. I could only think of a couple of reasons for this to occur. Since I clearly spent enough time with that strop (ridiculous number of laps) and I wasn't missing the edge (change between black ark and 7 mic strop) the only other reason I can think of is the paste doesn't have any particles that cut the steel. Looks like I got took by an unscrupulous seller, lesson learned. Probably a 12K in my future.
Goals: Long term to take over the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYvAYwpUDv8

(kidding that would be to much work).

Ultimately, I'd like to be confident another user would find my edge acceptable.

Shorter term I want to improve my edges.

Non-razor goal: Increase my knowledge base regarding microscopic tool marks. I have microscopically examined tool marks for over 25 years and took this as an opportunity to look at marks I don't usually encounter.
I thought putting up my observations might have some value to others. If not, consider my question answered.


Black ark


7 micron


3 micron

Originally Posted by Gasman

I can see you're viewing the same spot on the bevel. But using the coated stops that much is just crazy. Diamond strops only need 15 to 25 laps to change how it feels to the skin. Smooths the edge. I found when using them it was just a few stokes on the .5 and same on the .25 and done. That was after a 12K stone.
Keep in mind that strops work the very edge, not the flat of the bevel as much. Playing with odd stones of who knows grit range is hard to understand. You can find some naturals that will scratch the bevel, but feel nice. Others that scratch the bevel and make an edge jagged and course. Also, some that make a bevel look good but damages the edge. Playing/experimenting with odd naturals is for the pros. I wouldn't try it myself. You need to really know rocks, stria, edge uniformity and shave test results very well before doing that.
Good on you to try but stick with the synthetics for a few years first before diving into the pro level of experimenting.
Marty will guide you as he enjoys helping folks to learn to hone, but you have a lot to learn before going where you are going.

The black ark was just a first look. I don't intend to use it on razors until I understand it better. It was the lack of change between the 7 and 3 mic strop that set my head to spinning. I only included the ark pic to show the change after the 7 mic strop. At this point, I'm pretty sure there just isn't any diamond in those pastes. Unless there's another explanation I'm not thinking of, they're going into the circular filing cabinet.

The black ark is a finisher. I often use mine after a naniwa 12k.

I see now that they are of the same spot. Don’t know what is going on with your paste but it is not as rated.

I strop on .50 um Diamond paste and it will almost completely remove all the stria on a bevel visible at 400X, in about 50 laps after 20 laps the edge and about a 1/3 of the bevel is stria free.

I see that all the deep stria was on the bevel even at the Ark photo, the ark added more, fine stria that covered the deep stria. The diamond removed some of the fine stria and made the deep more prominent.

What is the diamond pasted on? I have had the best results on cotton or poly canvas, no need to over paste, 3 inch X’s are plenty.

Get a $20 King 1k or spend more time on the 4k to remove all the deep stria.

While the paste did not remove the deep stria, it is polishing near the edge and the edges look straighter. Experimenting with substrates may produce better results.

Originally Posted by bouschie

You just got that razor from me and liked the shave. My honing instructions were a simple process. Only one low grit for bevel set. 6000 water stone. 20,000 Jasper. Then strop linen with Theirs Issard strop paste. Finish on leather. I believe in the "KISS" method. Keep It Simple St???d. Works for me.

I really do like the shave off your edge and won't be touching it until I absolutely have to. I don't have a 6000, Jasper, or TI paste. The Jasper would be a similar unknown as the Ark. At least with my Ark I've got 30 or so years of "feel" with non-razor stuff. Granted it's not razor feel, but it's got to count for something.