Thread: Honing trouble (false positives?)

Hello folks! Disclaimer; I have shaved with straight razors for 15 years, and I am pretty picky.

I just got my first Swedish razor; a Heljestrand, and I was about to ask gssixgun to hone it, but then I though I should give honing one more try. I have tried others a number of times but in general I seem to be honing impaired Perhaps one issue is that I don't think I have a "consistent" set of stones (some blue Japanese 1000 grit, a Suehiro 20 000, and a natural very fine Chinese water stone). This razor seems to be getting sharp quicker than some others I have tried though.

One confusing thing is that I sometimes seem to get "false positives"; razors that pop arm hairs in mid air but don't shave that well. The HHT is currently so-so, it sometimes cuts, which I suspect is not good enough for my taste (?) Before I used to go "I'm sure it's good enough" when it seemed to pass the arm hair test, but I have learned that this is simply not the case. Should I just keep going? Another issue is fear of wearing out the razor, and patience I suppose Any advice is welcome!

Have Glenn hone it for you. I bet that he could give you some good advise after he sees your honing skills first hand. Also, it would be good for you to feel how his edge feels on your face as a comparison.

Not that there are currently any going on, but at some point we will get beyond all of this and there will be meets again. They are a fantastic place to learn to hone. Hands on with feedback right there.
The secret is that the basis of every truly great edge is the bevel set, or the perfection of the perfect apex of the edges from toe to heel. I use a loupe to see it develop. It is way easier than trying to figure out all of the subjective tests. A good loupe is not expensive. There is a thread with great pictures showing it progress and then the thread goes on to show what to look for in following your up through the hones each step of the way.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
It is basically the way I do it. There are many paths to the perfect edge. Follow on presenter on the subject until you get repeatable results. If you tape the spine, you would have to be very aggressive to ruin a razor honing, but I’m certain it can be done. Also an over cooked edge does not last very long.

Those edges are quite fine and it sounds to me like you are doing too much work..

Maybe creating a false edge, nice n sharp but collapses quickly ..

Try re honing it with half the work.. Its just a matter of mathematics now..

Swedish steel is very, very hard. Setting the bevel properly is critical on all razors but if bevel work falls short on a Swede, no work-arounds/shortcuts after that will save you. Just another angle to explore

I had the same happen to me lately with a Herder... Took armhairs off like crazy, but, on the face, it hurt like a mofo. Back to a bevel set for it!

Keep at it, though... buy a couple of crap razors to play with, and put em to the stones!

Originally Posted by RezDog

Not that there are currently any going on, but at some point we will get beyond all of this and there will be meets again. They are a fantastic place to learn to hone. Hands on with feedback right there.
The secret is that the basis of every truly great edge is the bevel set, or the perfection of the perfect apex of the edges from toe to heel. I use a loupe to see it develop. It is way easier than trying to figure out all of the subjective tests. A good loupe is not expensive. There is a thread with great pictures showing it progress and then the thread goes on to show what to look for in following your up through the hones each step of the way.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html
It is basically the way I do it. There are many paths to the perfect edge. Follow on presenter on the subject until you get repeatable results. If you tape the spine, you would have to be very aggressive to ruin a razor honing, but I’m certain it can be done. Also an over cooked edge does not last very long.

I already have plenty of loupes for my photography. Should have thought of that

EDIT: What magnification do you think does the trick?

It’s more about the quality of the optics. On a cheap loupe you will need to go to 30x but on a good quality loupe 15x is what many are using. A good loupe is not expensive either. To check the bevel set, look almost straight dow on the very point of the edge. Any white lines or sparkles and it is not set. A well set bevel will shave. A beautifully polished sides of the bevel, unless the bevel is set will not shave.

The first post suggests that "some blue Japanese 1000 grit," a Cnat, and a Suehiro 20k is the progression being used. If that's the case, it doesn't strike me as being very complete. And I'd be curious to know the make of the 1k. If, as others have suggested, it's all about bevel-setting, then that would seem to be the weak link here in the case of a cheap 1k. (One exception would be a Suehiro 1k, which is light blue, Japanese, and inexpensive. It is an excellent stone for razors in my opinion--what I use as part of a traditional, or soak-in-advance, Suehiro 1k/3k synth combo.)

For a more complete synth progression, I would suggest 1k > 3k >8k before moving to the Cnat, or at least 1k > 5k or 6k. And a more reliable 1k if that's the culprit.

For a loupe, I like to use a 10x achromatic Hastings triplet. The edge is viewed in silhouette and the bevel is viewed by reflected light. These can vary in cost and are pretty small as to size. Otto Frei has them for a decent price.

Also good to practice on beater razors before taking up a favored one as mentioned above.

I'm not a honing expert, but here is my approach. It is basically (325) > 1,000 > 4,000 > 8,000 > 12,000 > strop. More details below if you are interested.

First figure out if three layers of tape is correct or not. Use a set of calipers and measure the width of the blade from the cutting edge to the place where the spine will rest on the hone. Write that number down. Now divide it by 4 and write that number down. Now divide the measurement by three and write that number down. As an example. If the blade measures 0.75" wide, the two calculated numbers would be 0.1875 and 0.25 inches. This is the range that the thickness of the spine needs to measure with the tape. If the spine is more or less than that range (0.1875" - 0.25") then your bevel angle will not be correct. Adjust the layers of tape to get the spine measurement in that range (use calipers to take the measurement of the spine with tape).

Second is to set the bevel. Since I am typically making razors from scratch, my honing starts with a new razor that has never had the bevel set. Therefore I start with a DMT course grit (325). I prefer the diamond stone for the courser grits, but I don't trust them so much on the finer grits. This is where I see if I still need to grind the blade any, since the the bevel will reveal any uneven grinding. You shouldn't have this issue unless the blade is worn or abused to the point of needing some major repairs. Make sure that both sides of the bevel meet at the edge before moving on from this step. Once you have an even bevel with the 325 grit, finish setting the bevel with a DMT extra fine grit (1,200) hone. Make sure all the scratches from the previous grit have been removed.

Third is to polish the bevel. My progression is pretty simple. I have the old standard 4,000/8,000 Norton that works well. It is then finished with a Shapton 12,000 grit hone.

Finally is the stropping. I strop on linen with a chrome paste. Then I strop on leather. Glenn was kind enough to give me some advise on my leather stropping so that process may change here in the near future for me.