Thread: Bevel width

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Steve, that is a good question and observation which shows that you are absorbing information and putting it to use. It should not be overlooked that you were able to shave off of bevel set. That is not only a good exercise but it's result shows that you have passed over some hurdles. Good work both in reaching this point and also in learning what questions to ask and understanding where they lead.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the width of the bevel itself at this point in the game. There are concerns But mostly related to the overall condition of the blade. It's sort of like looking at a used car and how clean it is related to how well it has been maintained. If someone did not care enough to clean it they probably didn't care enough to maintain it. This is maybe not an exact comparison but if the bevel is wide at one point especially It may also mean that the blade is ground sloppily and there may be other problems with it. As long as the bevel angle is correct and it can reach an apex the entire way along the edge then the width of the bevel is somewhat academic. I am mainly speaking in terms of people like you and me who are trying to hone blades for their own use. It may have more significance to people like Glenn and others who are more in tune to the nitty-gritty of the geometry and honing from a professional standpoint.

Good point, that last. A pro works under a couple of serious limitations. He has to get them done in a reasonable amount of time and get them out the door, and he has to hone to the market, giving the customer what he wants and also what LOOKS like what he wants. My style of honing would not work well for a professional trying to hone a dozen razors a day of all different types and grinds.

Hi Guys, thank you all for your excellent advice and helping me to understand the relative unimportance of bevel width, at my stage in the game anyway.

I decided that trying to get to grips with setting a bevel on a straight and a smile at the same time was probably not such a great idea because i found myslf trying to apply the same techniques to two different types of edge. Maybe the same technique would work on a straight and a smile but that doesn't sound likely to me, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I put the smile to the side for today and concentrated on just the no name straight edge because it shaved the best of the two off of 1K.

I don't want to hurt the razors in my rotation because I am absolutely sure they are the best razors ever so I jointed the no name and set the bevel again. I will keep doing it until I get the perfect bevel. Rezdog said I should be able to get a close comfortable shave off a 1K bevel set. Great advice, now I know where the goal post is.

I also get the impression that unless a razor is being restored or a person is just practicing, a bevel once set probably won't ever need setting again. I bet I've opened a can of worms there LOL.

Anyway, I killed the edge and marked the bevel in red again.

I did a few laps up & down to see if I was removing the pen, then tried a few x strokes to see if that worked, then a few circles, and finally bit the bullet and had a go at some rolling X strokes. That did it!.

I didn't actually lift the end of the spine as I have seen a couple of times on youtube but rather just kind of moved the slight pressure along the length of the blade as I made the stroke. That was what I get the impression that gssixgun was advising on youtube but I may of misunderstood of course.

I jointed the blade again and made some slurry.

I did 40 laps of rolling X and then shaved some arm hairs.

I jointed it again and did rolling x 5 times without slurry and tested it again, then 5 more, then 5 more etc. I got it shaving arm hair after 4 sets of 5. I got the impression that the bevel should be set just and not overset.

I am going to shave with it again this morning but I have taken some pictures and as i am not 100% sure what I'm looking at perhaps you could have a look, thanks.

Overhoning from my point of view,is on the higher grit hones. It leads to a weak or foil edge, it may shave very well, but will have a short life. Overhoning on a 1K is just wasting steel.
If you have a near perfect or perfect bevel set, and do 20 or 30 very light strokes on the 1K you will reduce the scratch pattern and slightly improve the shave off your edge. Also when setting the bevel I never really concern myself as to what the sides of the bevel look like, at this point I feel they are not particularly relevant. I look nearly straight down on the very tip of the apex. It should be very hard to see and have no sparkles or lines. If you take and joint the edge lightly on your thumbnail, then look at the point of the apex, it should show a fine white line all the way along. In order to have the bevel set, you must bring the two sides back to form an apex. A set bevel is a perfect V and an inset bevel is more like a U. Bringing the side together to form the perfect V is the first goal in bevel setting.

Originally Posted by STF

Rezdog said I should be able to get a close comfortable shave off a 1K bevel set. Great advice, now I know where the goal post is.

So... I think that's very subjective (also not precisely what RezDog said). I could not get what I would consider a close comfortable shave off a 1K for sure. At 4K I expect smooth shaving with the grain and uncomfortable pulling ATG.

Add into that you are limited in experience and have an unknown blade, I would cage your expectations. RezDog explains well how to inspect for bevel setting... and if it inspects well under a loupe and is shaving arm hair well all along the blade, I would move to the next level.

As far as the photos... look pretty good! Stria is relatively uniform and in the same general direction. A bit rough on the heel and toe... not unusual for a new honer. An x-stroke you should alter the pressure some by adjusting the weight of the blade as you describe. I do roll the x-stroke in bevel setting (and indeed for the first several strokes throughout my progressions), lifting the toe and heel gently, for several strokes. I remember watching Glenn say in a video once always to hone towards a slight smile...

My four principles of honing:

(i) Work on a consistent edge leading stroke
(ii) Setting the bevel is the foundation and requires patience. Moving on before that's done is a waste of time.
(iii) Know what you want out of each level. Don't move on until you've got that.
(iv) It's not that complicated. Don't overthink it.

Bevel looks like something you can work with. A couple of pics are showing room for improvement but you should be able to develop from there. Try a half dozen pull strokes per side. This is where you lay the razor on the hone and instead of traveling up and down the hone, pull the razor directly to the side about 3/4" distance. After the pull strokes, another dozen or two dozen very light and very short X stroke laps. You should end up with a very clean edge, ready for the progression.

There is no need to joint the edge. You are only wasting more steel. Just hone.

The goal of shaving off a 1k edge is to perfect the 1k edge, make the stria as shallow and the edge as straight as possible. Once you learn to perfect one stone, you can do it for each stone in the progression. Stone prep, pressure, slurry, and honing stroke.

It is not an exercise in torture, it is immediate feedback of improvement in technique, or not.

The Lowe looks to have a frown. Check it on a flat surface. The round point needs heel correction, though the stabilizer appears worn down enough, but may cause you trouble at finish.

WD40 will remove the ink. You should clean all the rust off both razors, (000 steel wool and good metal polish). Or that oxidation/ rust will be imbedded into your strop and destroy all your hard work. You will never be able to remove it all from your leather strop.

Jointing the edge is not wasting steel, that same steel will come off on the next stone or on a strop. The difference is do you want to cut it off cleanly leaving a straight edge or hope the next stone cuts it of randomly.

The same amount of steel has to come off.

Once you have a straight edge, you just need to get the two bevels to meet.

The goal of honing a razor is to get the edge as straight as possible. The goal of honing a knife or tool is just to get them to meet, (sharp). A 1k edge is sharp, an 8k edge is sharp, and comfortable.

Thank you all for your advice it is very useful.

Funny story, I set the bevel yesterday on that round point, it shaved reasonably well and not too uncomfotable.

I jointed it and started again today, I set the bevel, posted some pics and shaved.

I didn't shave well, even after 4 passes.

I decided to try the 4K to see if it would help, gonna post a couple of 4K pics below.

Anyway, 4 passes on 4K were godawful and I went to get a razor from my rotation to shave with because I just had to.

Fun fact, I just had 12 passes in total, I should be bleeding but luckily I have skin like a Rhino.

Amazingly the WSP Tobacco lather I made in my scuttle actually lasted for the whole 12 passes it's either the bees knees or I make far too much, it is pretty lovely actually but a bit subtle smelling for me.

So for me it's back to the 1K for me, obviously need a bit more practice.

To be fair, I was warned that it was a poor shaver so I guess I chose it to practice on as a bit of a challenge. Maybe I should dig out one that I know shaves well and learn on that.

Not an exercise in torture? That snippet might have been helpful a few days ago

4K, looks ok to me so why won't it shave?

Originally Posted by STF

I didn't shave well, even after 4 passes.

I decided to try the 4K to see if it would help, gonna post a couple of 4K pics below.

Anyway, 4 passes on 4K were godawful and I went to get a razor from my rotation to shave with because I just had to.

Probably jointing too much or not bringing back the edge enough afterwards. It also depends on What you're joining on. I don't use the edge of a stone I use my thumbnail which also gives you feedback of where the edge needs work. People who know more than I do will disagree with me on this but for myself I find it takes down the edge too much. I feel that is wasting metal also. From my experience the thumbnail seems to work well enough. The 4K likely wasn't good because your bevel was not right. As you said it didn't shave well off of 1K. This is the whole point of shaving off of 1K: it is to help you understand bevel set, how to do it and when it's done thoroughly. Obviously if you could get a good clean comfortable shave off of 1K that would be amazing but it's not really the point.

If you are jointing the edge on a hone, it’s important to remember the metal you are straightening is crazy thin. It only requires a feather touch. I find my thumb nail works great. There are times when it is a valuable tool and other times when it’s redundant. There are many threads about it. I use it most in restoration honing when some parts of the edge are developed and others not and in restoration honing when the edge is ragged and needs to be straightened. There have also been times when an edge gets chippy further in the progression. I bought top quality razors to learn to hone. It made learning the process much more simple I think. All I had to think about was the edge, not the Geo,entry nor the quality of the steel.

You are not honing to the edge, see that white line at the edge. You either have a burr/flashing, or you are not honing to the edge or the bevels are not flat yet.

The 4k bevel is full of 1k stria leading to a chipped edge. The last photo and the one above it, are not honed to the edge on the right side of the blade.

Back to the 1k and ink the bevel to figure why you are not honing to the edge fully across the whole bevel. Try ink and another layer of tape.

If you have to, ink each stroke. It takes, what it takes.

Look down on the bevel, if you see any shiny spots, the bevels are not fully meeting.

Here is the bevel of a fully set 1k edge note the even stria all the way to the edge and note the straightness of the edge.

2nd photo looking straight down on the edge, not set. 3rd photo almost set, see reflections on right.
4th photo fully set bevels, the edge is in the middle of the grey line, a faint white line. No reflections.