Thread: Bevel width

Hi all,

I have my 1k soaking and and while I am waiting i had a thought, more of a question actually.

I have read in various threads that some of you like an extra layer of tape on the spine to get a narrower bevel while others prefer a wider bevel.

Wouldn't a wide bevel be sharper than a narrow one? Maybe I am missing something fundamental.

On the other hand, I can see how a wider bevel might be more delicate that a narrower one.

I believe that it has more to do with the bevel angle. I add/remove tape to achieve a certain angle. The bevel width is simply the result of the angle in combination with the blade thickness.

Reality:

All new built SRs that are built to the 16° - 17° included angle that razors have targeted for about 300 years have tiny neat even bevels..

As we listen to the Mythical idea that the spine and edge wear away at even amounts keeping that angle as the razor is used.. Unfortunately we have learned that this simply is not how real life works, and as we find razors in the wild we find that heavy hands have destroyed the spine and we see out of geometry Wide Bevels

It really is that simple, if you have a wide bevel your razor is out of geometry, that is reality

When we did tests years ago we found razors that were shaving just fine with angles from 12° - 23° so much of this is a moot point
The design of a SR is so good that it allows for many mistakes while honing and it will still deliver a good shave



ps: Yes even those heavy Near Wedges from 200 years ago when found NOS will have a Tiny neat even bevel and hone just as easily a Full Hollow Grind

I have just set the bevel on two razors I think, a straight round point and a smile.

I'm going to shave with them both off the 1k this afternoon.

If I survive I will let you know how I got on

Originally Posted by STF

I have just set the bevel on two razors I think, a straight round point and a smile.

I'm going to shave with them both off the 1k this afternoon.

If I survive I will let you know how I got on

Ouch! My face couldn't take that kind of punishment. You are a tougher man than me.

If yourbevel is correctly set, and your finishing passes on the 1K are light and smooth, the shave will not be a bad one. It amazes me still as to how close and mostly comfortable a 1K shave can be.

OK, so I shaved with both the round point on one side of my face and the smiler on the other side.

Both were just bevel set only (1K Norton).

I coloured the edges with a sharpie, a red one.

I didn't do a very neat job of colouring the bevel and got some further up the blade on the round point.

I started off with the round point on one side and as I washed it under the tap to clean the lather off I saw a huge red swathe on the blade.

OMG I thought, that much blood and i must be in trouble. After and extensive search for something that would need stitches it dawned on my that it was red sharpie

Enough humiliation I think. My shave was not super comfortable but not agony either, not so bad that I would stop shaving if that was all I could have from now on.

I'm definitely not BBS but I didn't shave for 2 days in preparation for this and I have to say I definitely look shaved.

The round point was the better set of the two so the question is, do I need to do the smiler again or move to 4k with both. Or, I could kill both edges and reset the bevels again, just for the practice.

The bevels are narrow and tidy, I did use one layer of tape except for the heel on the round point where I added another piece because it wasn't touching the stone. I don't know if thats quite right but it was suggested to me and it seemed to do the trick.

Just for informations sake, the round point is no name from England and the smiler is L Lowe & Co, Milwaukee.

I actually forgot to finish with light strokes and also forgot to strop before my shave.

A wider bevel will have a finer more delicate edge. Tape is used on the spine to primarily reduce hone wear. On hollow grinds I use 1 layer of tape. On a near wedge or wedge I use 2 layers. If I am having trouble getting a good edge on any grind I may at the end add a layer of tape to produce a micro bevel.

Width of the bevel surface and consistency of the width are not as important as the bevel angle. Also, the width is not correctible without changing the bevel angle, anyway unless you actually sand or grind the blade thinner. But FWIW here is my take on bevel width. Assuming all other things are equal.

1. A very narrow bevel requires much less work to develop and polish. This is because less steel is removed. Contact area is smaller. Stiction is much more manageable while honing.

2. A narrow bevel should be honed with much less pressure. A finger's weight spread across a bevel that is .08" wide results in twice the pressure compared to a bevel that is only .04" wide.

3. The bevel is not just the edge bevel. The contact area on the spine is also part of the bevel.

4. A very highly polished bevel such as you get when progressing beyond .1u grit can feel sticky and can give a rough feeling shave. This effect is less noticeable when the bevel is more narrow.

5. The grind of the razor determines the bevel width as much as the bevel angle does. A very thin blade will naturally have a narrow bevel compared to a heavier blade having the same bevel angle.

6. For the most part, bevel width is not a dealbreaker when it comes to honing and shaving, and neither is bevel angle, within a reasonable envelope. If it is ballpark normal, not worth being overly concerned with. Just hone it and strop it and shave.

7. Much is said regarding newbies putting lots of pressure on the spine and reducing the bevel angle to uselessness. I believe this is largely a matter of perception. Wear to the spine is instantly and immediately obvious. Wear to the edge is not. Steel worn away from the edge is just gone. Doesn't leave a trace of its former existence. Wear to the spine leaves a wider spine bevel or contact area if you insist. I have measured an awful lot of razors and found very few where the bevel angle actually has been reduced to where the razor can no longer be honed normally or does not shave well. Rather than encouraging newbies to "protect" the spine with tape, I think it should be stressed that some small amount of torque may be required to balance pressure between edge and spine. A heavy hand with the spine taped will increase the bevel angle as much as a heavy hand without tape can in theory reduce it.

I no longer make a big deal of preaching the wisdom of untaped honing. Those who will do it will do it, anyway. It's not my razor, and it isn't all that damaging, at least not in the normal, modern, discard oriented culture and economy. Few straight shavers today will be passing razors down to their great-great-great-grandsons. Nobody cares. I do, but that's just me. Many honers have other reasons for defaulting to taped honing, anyway.

At any rate, adding extra tape to create a narrower bevel is not really such a great idea, normally. If one must do it, I suggest that only doing this at the finish, for the final dozen laps or so, to create a micro-bevel, is the way to go. YMMV.

With wedges, of course, all bets are off. After any edge/bevel corrections, you pretty much have to hone with tape and ideally add another layer for the final laps of the finish. It's simply the only way to get best possible results with a full wedge. Most wedge blades have relatively thin spines, allowing the spine to be elevated slightly and still have a reasonable bevel angle. Once, this was done freehand or maybe with a thumbnail as a bevel gauge. Now, we use tape.

Steve, that is a good question and observation which shows that you are absorbing information and putting it to use. It should not be overlooked that you were able to shave off of bevel set. That is not only a good exercise but it's result shows that you have passed over some hurdles. Good work both in reaching this point and also in learning what questions to ask and understanding where they lead.
I wouldn't get too hung up on the width of the bevel itself at this point in the game. There are concerns But mostly related to the overall condition of the blade. It's sort of like looking at a used car and how clean it is related to how well it has been maintained. If someone did not care enough to clean it they probably didn't care enough to maintain it. This is maybe not an exact comparison but if the bevel is wide at one point especially It may also mean that the blade is ground sloppily and there may be other problems with it. As long as the bevel angle is correct and it can reach an apex the entire way along the edge then the width of the bevel is somewhat academic. I am mainly speaking in terms of people like you and me who are trying to hone blades for their own use. It may have more significance to people like Glenn and others who are more in tune to the nitty-gritty of the geometry and honing from a professional standpoint.