I could see it. Just sandpaper? I've never had to grind a stone before.
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Yes wetndri will work.
Yes but not recently. I was wrong to say I've never ground a stone actually, just never chamfered one. I heard the King 1k has a habit of dishing rapidly, so I have trued it with pencil grid and a truing stone before, I haven't tried this with the 4k norton yet. I suppose I could just use the truing stone to grind the edges if I wanted to.
I took another couple shots at it. First flattening my stones.
Pencil lines drawn on 8k side of the norton combo stone and my king 1k
Attachment 347598
The 1k got nice and flat with all the pencil lines and previous grey markings removed. The 4k appears to be getting shredded. Not sure if this is leftover grit from the 1k stone, or just this flattening stone being really bad at its one job, but soaking them both further and running them under water didn't make the shredding any better.
Attachment 347599
The flattening stone in question.
Attachment 347600
In any case, I tried five variations of stroke on the 1k.
1. Basically no pressure, just enough to keep the blade on the hone, conventional x-strokes, blade leading, switching sides to complete full back and forth strokes, both sides blade leading. This had absolutely no results, the blade could not cut any hair anywhere but the heel.
2. Keeping the blade close to fully on the stone at all times, varying very light pressure slightly from heel to toe as I move down the stone in a close to straight stroke, only moving to the side enough to get the whole blade as the blade is wider than the stone. No results on this either.
3. Stronger pressure, still light, full x-strokes. Would not cut at all after.
4. Back and forth strokes, one side at a time, alternating blade leading / blade trailing, just basically scrubbing it lightly, then switching side after about 20 of these. The blade will no longer cut hair on any part, not even the heel.
5. Same as above but with slightly stronger pressure. Will not cut at all.
I am increasingly baffled that they actually sold this for real money as a razor that cuts hair. I have seen it, after a skilled honing, cut hair, but I cannot get it to do so for the life of me. It is extremely frustrating spending hours trying to improve the edge with zero to show for it.
I guess I'll try *very gently* honing up the nice razor that paulFLUS sent me, just to build some confidence back up. The Dovo beat me.
Please send me links to specific guides on honing uneven razors. I can't get it with text instructions, it just will not shave at all.
No disrespect intended
I don't think you should touch the good edge that Paul sent.
Shave shave and shave some more, you really need to know how a good edge feels as a shaver with some experience before you touch metal to stone.
I told the following story to a new guy from Labrador recently in a private message, he missed the point and told everyone i wanted his razors which was not the case but i will repeat it now and hopefully it will be useful.
There was a guy on this forum, he had never shaved with a straight razor even once.
Before his first shave he bought 2 razors new, a Dovo and a TI plus a complete progression of Naniwa SS.
He had his first shave and wasn't happy with it.
He got the second razor and shaved, he wasn't happy.
It didn't occur to him he had only had 2 shaves and needed time.
He honed both brand new razors until he couldn't even cut his finger.
He was so disgusted that the stones didn't work that he went out and bought an electric razor.
He offered the razors and stones for sale, I tried to talk him into getting the razors honed properly and persevering but he was over it so i bought the stones and the TI, another member bought the Dovo.
My point is that you should get them both honed by one of the experts here and shave for a while before you end up killing your edges so effectively that you go off the idea of straights.
Like i said, no disrespect intended and its only my opinion for what its worth.
I suppose you're right, though to be clear I have no intention of trying to re-do the edge on that razor from scratch, simply some very light strokes on the 8k. It has this stiction feel to it that kind of scares me using it, I have a huge scar on my lip from the last time one of my razors was sticking badly (that was just really bad shaving cream.)
I spoke to my local honer dude, his razors he would be willing to sell are mostly wonky geometry like mine, so I would have to try and find something beginner friendly on eBay.
It's not the bow. It's the Indian. You positively absolutely refuse to follow one honer, using kit and technique identical to his. Random technique can only give you random results. Am I recalling correctly, that your Dovo is a Bismarck or similar model? Those are the easiest razor to hone that Dovo makes, and they are not twisty or warpy like Dovo's entry level razors notoriously are. Guides will not help you because you will not follow them. Until you begin to exactly and precisely follow one acknowledged honer and perfectly duplicate his kit and his technique, you are doomed to wander in the honing wilderness forever, I'm afraid. It will cost you time. It will cost you money. And you still won't be able to shave with your own edge. And BTW, hitting Paul's no doubt very competent edge with an 8k would not be gentle at all. It would be a waste. Don't go there. Not even with a 12k, or with 1µ film, or a slate or a Jnat. When you can put a good edge on the Dovo, THEN consider touching up your other razor when it needs it, if that ever happens.
Sorry but I have to agree. You are going in too many directions. Pick one, ANY one (well, almost any) and follow it until you get success. Master that then venture others.
By the way, the offer still stands to hone them free of charge and assess what is going on if you want to pay for shipping. Hell, send em all and I'll do all of them to atom splitting edges and make the most of your postage.
EDIT: I'll even give pointers on each one to help you in the future.
You seem equally unwilling to read. I actually did follow the exact technique my local guy showed me, in person, on my stones. Certainly I am not skilled at it the way he is, and also that was on a much more perfect razor, so it didn't play out.
I also followed the scienceofsharp plan step by step. Again, it's intentionally a simple guide for simple razors using a simple setup, I couldn't get it with this razor.
"You are getting bad results therefore you are not following instructions" is really, really ignorant and pointlessly insulting. I am following instructions verbatim. I said myself that if my results are not approaching anything useful following a text guide, then I am on the lookout for a more visually followable guide especially for a warped razor. This is indeed a warped razor too, it is not a bismarck it's a colonel conk, which is the most notorious Dovo line for quality control problems.
See above. I'm looking out for something I can follow start to finish *for warped razors.* Both the in person lessons I got and the scienceofsharp guides are not for warped razors.
It does remain a wide open question whether I could get decent results on a razor with sound geometry, I freely admit and have many times already. I will look around ebay for something decent in the near future. It seems like there is a major skill barrier for warped razors, even slightly warped. I would be happy to buy one off of a member here, honed nicely or not. I just need something that doesn't have curveballs that require special techniques.
Science of Sharp is a good site, but it is a sharpening site. This is a razor site, and there are other razor sites where you will find most of the same players on the field. It's a community, and we are all about razors. Which do you think is better, for honing your RAZOR? You liked Paul's edge. Why not emulate him, and shoot for the same sort of edge as your goal and benchmark? And if it is a Dovo Bismarck that you have, I can promise you it is definitely not warped to any significant degree unless you have honed it to be so. Also I think we have already discussed your local sharpening guy.
Further, if you are going to mess about with entry level razors or old abused vintage razors, you WILL find that hardly any will have perfect geometry, and it is up to the honer to set the bevel and make it right. It is part of honing razors. It held me back in my early days but the Eureka moment was when I took my first expendable and cheap at under $3 (at the time) Gold Dollar, and resolved to beat it into submission, and was rewarded with a bevel that definitely did not have consistent face width, but had two faces that met perfectly and could be honed to as good an edge as any other razor. As over the years GD's quality control started to become less horrible, I found that a gentler touch was possible, and I got much better at honing other razors. The level of brutality vs finesse varies with the razor but the underlying truth is "Do no harm that is not necessary to make it shave well". If you began with a new Dovo Bismarck and the geometry sucks, there is only one person who could have made it so, but the good news is it can almost certainly be corrected if not ignored, and that correction can come from a competent honer, or it can even come from you, but not if you are attacking in random directions and leaning to your own perceptions and misunderstandings. The fact that after all this time, with all these respected honers offering and giving help, you still are not achieving even satisfactory results, is self evident.
Don't give up, but get your technique from someone grounded in the community, one guy, and stick with it. I PROMISE this will work if you DO IT HIS WAY, with HIS CHOSEN TOOL SET, and do not wander or meander. Meanwhile, Paul has made a killer offer and I urge you to take it, listen to his analysis and advice, and meanwhile get a whole bouquet of GD's to practice on. The P-81 and the 208 are actually pretty nice razors. A good honing, a bit of polish, and new scales, and you would never know that they were not $120 razors. The humble and clunky #66 can be turned into a nimble sports car of a razor, with enough care and attention, but can also be "just honed" after the rough geometry is tamed, and made to shave quite well. Little financial risk, plenty of cannon fodder, no sleep lost over destroying one or two. I am afraid that maybe you are well on your way to a massacre on your Bismarck, and it is time to back off, take a deep breath, and re-evaluate your grand strategy once and for all.
I'll try some gold dollars, sure. For now the ability of a razor to hold the edge is not even relevant to me, it just needs to be sound enough of shape to practice on. The tool set I have is the tool set I'm going to have, I'm not switching out my equipment, so the whole idea of finding someone and copying their entire setup is already in the trash. I know my setup is good enough for a fact, though. I guess I can look for someone who does it with similar stones. The Dovo is not a bismarck, and came warped from the factory, as they are commonly known to.
Then get someone to help you learn how on your stones. I have all those stones and have done that with others. What about the local guy? Has he not helped you with that razor? Most of the honers here have a trunk full of stones and can match closely enough to get you there.
If that colonel conk is warped as you say it can be analyzed and corrected. You just have to know how to do it. Whether it is by building up tape or using a narrow stone or the edge/side of the stone there are threads here about that very topic. I have one of those and it takes a fabulous edge and gives an outstanding shave so yours is capable of the same.
I would give you a piece of advice though. Don't insult people who are going out of their way trying to help you. In complete candor I am starting to lose interest and I have done a LOT to help you. I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back. In fact I normally prefer that it goes unsaid but I say that for your own good. I am only one of many trying to get you there. That said I have made a very generous offer which you don't even acknowledge as have others. My offer is reaching its sell by date. Don't let that happen with everyone.
Just my 2¢ worth.
Gentlemen
Keep it civil, please.
Use Private Message for judgemental observations
Dave
I am looking for good guides, especially a video series, that uses similar stones as me, and deals with the nuances of honing on warped razors, I haven't found anything solid yet, as most of the guides that deal with warped razors are made by people who have already committed the nuances to muscle memory. They give out advice e.g., "make sure to move pressure across the length of the blade as you do the stroke." That is truthful information I'm sure, but it's evidently not enough to get me from a dull blade to a sharp blade, as I have tried exactly that, and multiple subtle variations of exactly that (an inexperienced beginner's interpretation of their words, of course,) and can run the pad of my thumb over the blade without it even feeling particularly sticky, so the words aren't doing it for me.
Local guy showed me how to hone a razor with very good geometry, which doesn't seem to work for me at all with this somewhat warped blade (jury is still out on if it's just me doing a really bad job using his technique, or if the technique he showed me simply does not work on a warped razor.) He did sharpen this exact razor in the past, and has, as you suggested, tried to correct for the warp by wearing the spine. It is substantially less warped now than it was when I bought it, but still defeating me outright. I could call him up in the future but it's very inconvenient as he lives over an hour from me. I am confident this blade can hold a nice edge, as it has in the past, I just need to get it back to that place.
I don't want to send it out to you or anyone else, as the entire basis of this thread was that I had already done exactly this before, though to a less skilled honer, and I managed to dull the edge within a couple shaves (admittedly with very poor shaving technique, probably bad stropping technique, probably dropping it on a towel at some point, and spaced out over the course of a year.) Yours was dulling too, but seems to respond much better to the pasted strop than my Dovo does, by far. I do appreciate the generosity, especially considering how generous you already have been sending me that razor for free, and the pasted strop, getting it professionally honed again just is not what I'm going for. I'm at the point where finessing a nice edge out of this razor is more important to me than having it sharp. Probably much frustration to come with regards to that.
I did order a bunch of gold dollar razors earlier, they were *extremely* suspiciously cheap, they said $30 total for 4 in my cart, then got discounted to $5 total as I purchased them (!??!?). These apparently are known for awful geometry, and are so cheap that I can be as impatient as I want with them without losing anything of value, so I feel like its a wise way forward.
Job15, is a member here has a fantastic series on honing and setting a bevel on YouTube.
Thanks, I'll bookmark his channel and check them out in the near future. edit: What's the channel called?
My local guy suggested that perhaps the reason my results are so far from passable is that the angle of the razor is too aggressive, so that the sides of the edge simply will not touch without using tape on the spine. That seems quite unlikely to me, I'll measure it shortly to get an idea of where the angle is at. I did tape the edge and got equally bad results so I have no personal evidence for this, but he did choose to use tape when he sharpened it.
To be clear I didn't say wear down the spine. That is sometimes an option but I normally try to avoid that as it can affect bevel angle. I prefer to use a narrow stoneor even the side of the stone but in the case of combination stones that's hard to do although not impossible. There's a trick where you can tape the spine and "hone" the spine until the tape wears through on the high spots then tape again and repeat until it wears evenly all the way across. Now that's if the spine only is warped. Originally (at least typically) the spine and edge would match and both would be warped thereby making it better to use a narrow stone but if it has been honed much it's hard to say plus sometimes it's not an even warp, it's a twisted warp.
Its hard to say what it is without seeing it. That's why it's hard to diagnose or give suggestions or instructions without knowing.
Gee. It's nice to help others, but 5 pages of this has yielded nada, IMO.
Some don't listen to advise given. It's a pursuit for some to ask and then argue......... Silly.
Seems time to move on?
Here's an itemized list of the adjustments I've made within the last 2 months:
- In person lessons from the most skilled honer I could find in my city.
- Multiple attempts on my own to hone my razor using his exact technique to the best of my ability.
- Chamfered the stones when I learned that they aren't supposed to be perfect rectangles.
- Found new techniques to flatten stones upon discovery that my previous method is very flawed.
- Ordered a group of cheap razors to practice on to avoid unnecessary wear on my nicer Dovo.
- Spent 3-4 hours on the hone practicing.
- Read through the entire ScienceofSharp website, as well as a bunch of other literature.
- Attempted to follow his instructions step for step.
- Purchased a new Loupe so that I can get a closer and clearer look at the edge of my razor.
- Refined my stropping technique with in-person help from my local honer, as well as watching videos and practicing.
- Added the pasted strop to my honing progression.
- Significantly more practice using a straight razor to shave.
- A bunch of time and effort trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong by talking to people here and listening.
- Asked for specific recommendations for guides that skilled honers think I *should* follow, after explaining that I have no ability to parse them for quality myself.
- Learned how to feel for a burr as small as would be present on a straight razor.
- Learned how to shine light on the edge of the razor to try to identify areas where the edge doesn't meet.
And then tomorrow I plan on:
- Taking high quality photographs at different angles of the razor.
- Measuring the spine with calipers at various points.
- Calculating the angles of the razor.
- Learning a new technique from Edge Dynamics videos.
That's just the last two months or so. I'm mad at the razor, not the instructions I've been given. I haven't blamed anyone's instructions for my failure to get an edge on this razor. I have every right to be frustrated with this thing too considering how much I spent on it, how much effort I've put into it, and how little I've gotten out of it. This razor cost me over $200 Canadian, and I also spent $40 getting it professionally honed by two different people, and another $250 on stones, and so far over the 4 years I've owned it, I've gotten 2 decent shaves out of it.
I'm going to have a stroke if one more person suggests I "don't listen to advice given".
Yes Paul you did mention Joseph, but that good advice, along with post upon post upon post of other sound advice was either ignored or simply dismissed by @rickytimothy. We are now on page 19 in this thread, and are going round and round in circles here and zero progress has been made by this bloke. Reckon I'm close to done.
Put that bad boy aside and come back to it after you have more experience under your belt. That's the nice thing about having a gaggle of them.
The only stroke that will hone this razor is not in your list of variations. The rolling X- stoke. It was suggested to you in your thread back in 2021.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...en-spines.html
I'm more than happy to do that :), I'm quite sure that the differing expectations of the Gold Dollars will make the frustration sting less. It hits differently when you know how much the Dovo cost + the fact that I should never have had to sharpen it this much in the first place.
By the way I am a gambling man, and if someone sends me an intentionally dull razor but that has good geometry, I would be happy to bet you the cost of the razor and shipping that I can get a good edge on something with normal geometry. I'll throw in $10 on top of razor and shipping if I can't.
I was unclear, all of my attempts were rolling X-stroke, the only real variation was whether I alternated direction every stroke, how much pressure I put on it, and whether I slid the razor laterally across the hone or tried to keep a straight path with simply adjusted region of pressure from my hands.
It should go without saying that I understand this is a tricky technique, and whatever my version of the "rolling x-stroke" was is probably incorrect. GSSixgun did give me zoom lessons on that specific technique though so I do get the idea if not the execution.
I'm buying a tripod one of these days so I can actually demonstrate what I'm trying to do.
From the wording in your posts, that you're trying to keep the razor in full contact on the stone, it sounds like your rolling X may well be wrong. With a proper rolling X you will not have the razor fully flat on the stone. It will only contact the heel initially & then other areas as you slide the razor off the hone.
Something like using a butcher's steel to give a loose analogy.
I was going to suggest you make a video.
Not sure if this will help explain or just confuse more. But when I was new to honing Victor showed me something that helped me to understand.
Take a diner plate and put it on the table. Think of the rim of the plate being the razors edge and the base of the plate being the spine. With one finger push down on the edge of the plate until the edge touches the table. Now rotate the plate with the edge and base staying in contact with the table a 1/4 turn. This is a rolling stroke. The edge and spine stay in contact but move. Then after you get that figured out the next thing is to learn that the point of contact on the edge and spine needs to make an X pattern while moving across the stone.
Id draw a picture all i can draw are stick people.
By 1/3 of the hone, I'm not sure if you mean the stone is sideways or lengthwise.
This idea of the only place the edge is contacting the stone being a very slim area on the side of the stone is exactly what I was going for. Much easier said than done of course. I forgot to bring my razor to work where my nice cameras are so I'll get photos later this week of the degree of warp.
When you're doing a rolling x-stroke, it would probably never make sense to alternate direction every stroke, correct? Seems like it would be very challenging getting the roll just right if you flip the blade around constantly.
As onimaru55 suggests, make a video and let us all see.
We can discuss it till the cows come home and get nowhere.
When i first started shaving with a straight i was really bad at it of course.
Some of the guys here will probably remember the two videos i made, i got so much useful advice and i honestly felt like i had a bathroom full of experienced guys helping me.
Fire up that camera, or iPad or phone and let us see, I promise you wont regret it, you can set the video on YouTube so that only people you give the link to can see it - of course share it with everyone on here or it would be a pointless exercise
Like this.
Attachment 347658
I always hone by flipping to each side for a complete pass. Of equal pressure and distance across the stone. One mimic's the other. I never hone one side, then the other.
Probably why your having trouble setting a bevel. Things have to be equal on both sides, consistently.
I tried both multiple times (alternating sides for one complete pass, or one side at a time). I'm really not sure what to even suspect at this point. I watched very carefully the amount of pressure my teacher used when he was setting a bevel, even using a scale to get a close idea of what kind of force he was putting down, and am making very deliberate effort to not over-pressure the razor as I'm honing, yet I'm getting really bad results still. The obvious conclusion should automatically be "you are using too much pressure" I think. Maybe it's true even with my effort to avoid it.
I'll order a tripod for my phone tonight, and take a shot at it again when it shows up. The only reason I haven't filmed it yet is lack of tripod.
Maybe part of the issue is that the blade is not actually smiling completely, but curls off a little bit at the toe. Maybe a full rolling x-stroke motion is counter-productive if either most of the blade is touching at once, or just the toe is. (Pictures to come.)
This is the idea with honing on the side/edge of the stone. Picture the whole spine on the stone and how if it were warped it would not lie flat because the whole length is on it. Instead of it sitting on a 3 inch wide stone if it sat in a 1inch wide stone the warp doesn't affect it because it's a narrow section of the edge and spine.
Think of this and then picture rocking the blade heal contacting first then toe as it nears the edge.
I actually posted something a while back about that where I drew a line about an inch in like Mike showed and the image is to think of keeping that line at roughly a 90° to the point of the edge that it intersects. That makes you automatically do a rolling X. Then it also gives you a point of reference reference to watch to keep THAT point of the edge in contact with the stone
I definitely get the concept at least in my head. Possibly the most surprising thing when I take a video is that my technique is not as brutal as people probably imagine considering the awful results. I can't blame anyone for assuming that, the results should speak for themselves.
When I tried to set a bevel in front of my local guy, he told me it looked pretty much normal to him. I wasn't trying rolling X though.