Thread: Edge life vrs razor geometry

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

I’ve seen hundreds of razors with worn spines but never seen a razor with excessive hone wear to the bevel over time because the spine was taped.

I've no doubt of your results. Just curious what could be the cause of that. If the razor was made with only one steel and heat treated evenly, I would expect the bevel to wear out faster as there is significantly less material.

Originally Posted by STF

Eventually being the operative word, I don't think you're likely to ever see that.

Hone wear can happen very fast, I got a Gold Dollar to play with and those things have some big ol spines so i honed it without tape with the intent of wearing the spine, omg it happens fast on 1K.

Trust the guys that really know what their talking about, if they say tape you should listen, they will only say it so many times.

Nah, it's not that I don't trust you guys here but rather the results were counter intuitive and I'm going to be sleepless if I cannot find out why...

I've only worked on 6 razors so far, 4 new and two vintage ones that need minor restorations. Those new ones all came with spines in different magnitude and I have to say there was fair bit work to get them into the shape I'm happy with. I had to use diamond plate to get the job done in reasonable time.

Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.

Originally Posted by mrjin

Nah, it's not that I don't trust you guys here but rather the results were counter intuitive and I'm going to be sleepless if I cannot find out why...

I've only worked on 6 razors so far, 4 new and two vintage ones that need minor restorations. Those new ones all came with spines in different magnitude and I have to say there was fair bit work to get them into the shape I'm happy with. I had to use diamond plate to get the job done in reasonable time.

Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.

You just gotta do what you have to do to make it work for you! Adapt and overcome, you'll be fine in the long run!

Originally Posted by mrjin

Nah, it's not that I don't trust you guys here but rather the results were counter intuitive and I'm going to be sleepless if I cannot find out why...

I've only worked on 6 razors so far, 4 new and two vintage ones that need minor restorations. Those new ones all came with spines in different magnitude and I have to say there was fair bit work to get them into the shape I'm happy with. I had to use diamond plate to get the job done in reasonable time.

Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.

If you are losing any noticable spine on a razor in good condition you are simply using WAY too much pressure!
Significant (1mm-2mm) in width should take many years of honing when honed properly without tape.
When going to a 1k stone you need to concentrated the pressure to the edge=torque. It should not be much pressure anyway or you will create other problems.
I do not use tape anymore but I did for some time and recommend it for new honers till they can get a consistant edge. This will prevent unnecessary wear to the spine.

I always use tape on every razor. How much depends on the existing angle. To help get a good measurement you can marker not only the edge but the spine. Do a couple of light strokes then measure from the very edge to the near edge of the place on the spine where the marker wore off and measure the thickness of the spine from that same spot. I usually shoot for 17°-18° as I prefer an edge to be slightly obtuse rather than acute, the thought being that it should be more durable.

Originally Posted by mrjin

Nah, it's not that I don't trust you guys here but rather the results were counter intuitive and I'm going to be sleepless if I cannot find out why...

I've only worked on 6 razors so far, 4 new and two vintage ones that need minor restorations. Those new ones all came with spines in different magnitude and I have to say there was fair bit work to get them into the shape I'm happy with. I had to use diamond plate to get the job done in reasonable time.

Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.

You can fix chips without wearing down the spine or losing to much metal along the edge if you raise the spine slightly off the stone while honing out the chips. With micro chips, you’ll lose almost no metal. With larger chips, you’ll minimize the amount of metal you’ll need to remove from the edge.

In my experience a diamond plate to remove small chips is kind of like using a sledgehammer to peen a razor pin. It’ll remove a lot of metal quickly, but if you don’t use a light touch, you’ll take off way more than you have to. I prefer to spend more time with a 1.5k - 2k stone and stop to check regularly with a loupe.

I save my 1k or lower grit diamond hones for my knives or to repair significant chips or other edge damage on big razors where there is enough metal that losing some metal still leaves a razor with reasonable width. Then I judge whether or not I have to modify the spine to correct the edge geometry.

Learn to torque/twist the razor while honing, instead of downward pressure.

Takes practice, but will save your spine from undo hone wear.

Originally Posted by mrjin

I've no doubt of your results. Just curious what could be the cause of that. If the razor was made with only one steel and heat treated evenly, I would expect the bevel to wear out faster as there is significantly less material.

Originally Posted by mrjin

Those two vintage ones, on the other hand, the spine came in almost perfect shape and no obvious wear at all. But after fixing minor chips on the edges, both spines now have fair bit of wear. Note that I only used 1K stone to remove the chips and set the bevel.

You answered your own question. An inexperienced hand can destroy a spine double quick.
As said previously torque is your friend

Originally Posted by stoneandstrop

If you are losing any noticable spine on a razor in good condition you are simply using WAY too much pressure!
Significant (1mm-2mm) in width should take many years of honing when honed properly without tape.
When going to a 1k stone you need to concentrated the pressure to the edge=torque. It should not be much pressure anyway or you will create other problems.
I do not use tape anymore but I did for some time and recommend it for new honers till they can get a consistant edge. This will prevent unnecessary wear to the spine.

I guess my mistake was actually thinking all razors are the same. While I was trying to fix the geometry issues on those brand new ones, despite I pressed super hard, 1K stones simply did not cut. Eventually I had to use diamond plates. But after that I did not see obvious worn after over a year.

The I used a bit more pressure than my usual honing to fix those chips. It looked it was too much, also those vintage razor spines seem to be much softer than new ones.

Just double checked, One is Bengall, the other one is Kropp. For the Bengall one, had to set the bevel twice as there was a mishap and the spine lost was about 1.5mm. Not an issue really as the edge was removed about 2mm too.

For the Kropp one, the spine lost was about 0.5mm, not much but I can see the original curve is now flattened a bit.

I will tape the spine for vintage one from now on, especially for restoration work. I don't really have any concerns around new one so far except unhappy with Dovo's ground. 3 brand new Dovos, none was even close to any of those vintage ones.

Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

You answered your own question. An inexperienced hand can destroy a spine double quick.
As said previously torque is your friend

Lol, not an issue really, as I destroyed the edge maybe 10 times quicker.