Thread: HHT off the Coticule

An interesting thing to consider is that no commercial blade (Merkur, Feather, Derby - whatever) fails the hanging hair test, the modified armhair test, the "original" armhair test, or whatever. Some may consider these "too" sharp, but you have to agree that these blades are not overhoned - because if they were they'd go bad after the first stroke on a beard.

They last 5-10 shaves without even stropping, and you have to admit, that is pretty impressive performance for a blade that is only hardened to Rc56. I bet if one got their straight to that level of performance (10 shaves without stropping), they'd be singing the virtues of that blade in ballads.

What this most likely means is that those commercial 50 cent blades are optimally honed, and unfortunately that implies that straights that don't pass the HHT are not. That such straights give a good shave is true, but not necessarily indicative of optimal honing.

My personal theory is that most people get comfortable with a certain level of sharpness that is enough to cut their hair without pulling too much - after all the body rapidly adjusts to an applied pain threshold making the shave seem painless. Most people stop at this point thinking that their blades are properly honed (and they are, for their unique beard/skin/pain threshold combination) but are they optimally honed? Sorry to burst the bubble, they are not.

Once you get a straight truly sharp, it will pass the HHT, the OAT, the MAT or whatever, with ease. It will also shave differently; you will be using very little pressure, almost floating the blade off the skin - and it will last 8-10 shaves without stropping.

However this may not be how you like your blades - but that is your prerogative - your optimal point of sharpness is not the same as mine or someone elses, so it finally boils down to whatever pleases you.

I think that's a good point. Optimal sharpness, whilst succeeding at HHT 100%, does not equate to optimal shave. And this accounts for a commonly held belief that feathers are too sharp, by which people often mean too unforgiving.

Originally Posted by karkarta

Most people stop at this point thinking that their blades are properly honed (and they are, for their unique beard/skin/pain threshold combination) but are they optimally honed? Sorry to burst the bubble, they are not. Once you get a straight truly sharp, it will pass the HHT, the OAT, the MAT or whatever, with ease.

There are guys here for whom the feather edge is the holy grail, and they're experimenting with 30K shaptons, double bevels, newspaper print, etc. to get there. And I'm sure you're right, Vijay, that razors at that level of sharpness won't fail the HHT.

But the thing is, the HHT is not a flat-out consistent indicator for normal honing, even 'normal' honemeister honing. There are lots of guys here who'll attest to their best Lynn- or Chandler-honed razors "failing" the HHT yet giving superb, float-through-the-beard shaves where you only know it's cutting from the sound. What's more, the razors will often pass the HHT at lower grits and then stop passing it as you go up. I can get an HHT every time with a Norton 4k and even with a white Ark! (~1200). And often as not, those same razors start failing the HHT after I've taken them to a coticule and they're shave-ready. Some say this has to do with 'toothiness'. I have no idea, but I have seen this effect time and again.

What you say about guys getting comfortable with less-than-optimally honed razors would certainly apply to me, and others I'm sure. But there are a lot of genuine honemeisters here who can take steel wherever it will go, and the consensus among them seems to be that the trade-off of sharpness is durability. An 'optimally' honed razor is one that strikes the right balance between these two things. The HHT is just an indicator, it's like church bells telling you you're near the center of town – but it's not to church that you're headed.

Also, I wonder about the argument that a feather-sharp straight can go without stropping for 8-10 shaves. I'm beginning to wonder who has the high pain threshold here . But seriously, does this make sense? A sharper edge is by definition a thinner edge, which will need realigning more often, no? Ultimately, I wonder if it makes sense to extrapolate from the properties of factory-produced DE blades. From what I understand, they're coated with something that keeps the edge from needing realigning. It dulls without really 'fraying', so to speak. I don't know if that effect is reproducible with even an optimally honed straight.

Anyway your post was food for thought obviously, so thanks.

Originally Posted by Howard

Shave with the blade and see what you get. The HHT is so subjective as to be relevant only when comparing blades with your own hair from the same section of your scalp.

...and generally at the same time as diet can effect the amount of keratin protein in hair which gives hair its strength. Stress can also be another factor.

so many variables to list which make the HHT so inaccurate.

You can generally tell by the sound and feel on the hone if and when the razor is ready for stropping. I normally just run it up my forearm to pop hairs that way.

Landis,

Happy to hear that you are enjoying the stone. I got exactly the same results as you off of that exact stone. Blades wouldn't pass the HHT but shaved wondefully.

Enjoy.

While we are at it, let me play devil's advocate for a bit. And let me put in a disclaimer - what I am going to argue is merely for the sake of argument. I don't mean to imply that anybody's honing skills or shaving skills are not upto par. I am going to write what follows because I feel that it will advance our collective understanding of honing and the sharpness and smoothness of an edge.

First, what's to say that Feather sharpness is not the "correct" level of sharpness? Are we relying only on the opinion of someone who has never shaved with a razor that sharp? In that case it could very well be that the technique used was at fault, and correcting the technique would result in a revaluation that the Feather edge is the Holy Grail of Sharpness.

Secondly, if it were that the Feather is exactly what a razor should be like, then inevitably it would pass the HHT. This is consistent with all the literature in barbering textbooks etc. about a properly honed razor passing the HHT. Why doesn't the literature mention even once that the HHT is subjective or unreliable? I mean, that was the accepted standard for professional barbers for decades, maybe centuries, so how can we dismiss the HHT so easily? Isn't it the more plausible explanation that it is our razors that are improperly honed?

Thirdly, why should one assume that honemeister honing is optimal? I mean, you take a guy who's been shaving with a razor he "honed" himself - one that pulls like crazy. And he gets a razor that is far better than that from a honemeister. Certainly he will experience a far smoother shave - and this logically points to the fact that the honemeister edge is far better than his own. But what if the honemeister edge itself is not quite optimal? I mean, when we go about setting a reference point about what a properly honed edge is, why set it at what is achievable by one or even a hundred honemeisters - why not set it to the Feather level?

Fourthly, shouldn't a sharper edge also last longer? After all, it is cutting with less resistance, i.e., less probability of distorting the blade or edge and dulling it? How come a straight razor edge needs to be stropped so often, and even on pasted strops every day but not a disposable blade? That teflon or platinum coating is largely marketing hype - both are significantly softer than hardened steel, and they could hardly have the elasticity needed to keep the edge aligned - i.e., a much harder and stronger material from bending. And at the sub-nanometer edge geometry, those materials can do nothing at all.

Fifth - what if I argue that a Feather-sharp edge can easily go 10 shaves without stropping, and give an ultra smooth shave each time? And that it is perhaps a shaving technique error that causes the edge to dull prematurely? I mean, face it, we are all untrained here, trying to learn a fine art by ourselves; shouldn't we put everything to the unflinching light of logic? What data suggest that our technique is absolutely correct and a finer edge must dull earlier? Available data actually suggest the opposite, in fact.

And sixth - what else do we extrapolate from other than factory honed blades? I mean, a factory honed Merkur DE blade meets all the criteria that were laid out in barbering textbooks, gives a fantastic shave, lasts for a plurality of shaves without stropping (and more if the shaving technique is optimized) - the holy grail of the edge in other words. Certainly there are very few barbers in existence who hone their own blades and provide straight razor shaves. And even if there are - I have had shaves from professional barbers who do a surprisingly bad job. So how does one set a reference point for a blade and the edge?

OK then - enough of that. In my personal opinion, I tend to agree that the HHT is not a very reliable test, that the Feather is not the Holy Grail of Sharpness, honemeister edges truly are superb and so on - but in the absence of a point of reference, I have to question everything. I have tried 30K shaptons, newspapers, double bevels, 0.1 micron polycrystalline diamond pastes, monocrystalline diamond pastes, chromium pastes, boron pastes, powdered alumina, you name it - in search of that elusive perfect edge.

I can achieve Feather sharpness with no difficulty now, and make a blade far sharper than that. It will last a long time too - and you could shave for a minimum of 10 days without stropping. It is easy to do, and you can do it too if you want - it will be the best edge of your dreams. It will consistently pass the HHT, and with butter like smoothness. But you won't actually be able to shave with it. Simply because it will slice your skin without the slightest provocation. I believe that there is a range of sharpness of a blade wherein it is sharp enough to slice through wet hair smoothly, but not sharp enough to slice skin. That is the true balance that an edge meant for shaving must strike.

Again, in my humble opinion, it is possible to make an edge that strikes that balance - but there is a range of sharpness values that meet that balance condition. At the lower end, you get shaving smoothness but not necessarily a pass on the HHT - this is where a honemeister may place the edge - and at the top of that range is shaving smoothness, a consistent pass on the HHT, but an unforgiving edge - i.e., one that slices skin with the slightest error. In other words, where the Feather is.

And finally where in that range of sharpness you put your own edges depends on your level of comfort.

This is my "explanation" that fits the facts; I could be very wrong, so please provide your inputs - I would much appreciate them.

Originally Posted by karkarta

I can achieve Feather sharpness with no difficulty now, and make a blade far sharper than that. It will last a long time too - and you could shave for a minimum of 10 days without stropping. It is easy to do, and you can do it too if you want - it will be the best edge of your dreams. It will consistently pass the HHT, and with butter like smoothness. But you won't actually be able to shave with it. Simply because it will slice your skin without the slightest provocation. I believe that there is a range of sharpness of a blade wherein it is sharp enough to slice through wet hair smoothly, but not sharp enough to slice skin. That is the true balance that an edge meant for shaving must strike.

What honing method do you use to achieve the level of sharpness that you describe?

My honing technique is very simple - if I am creating a new bevel, I do it with a Shapton 2k. Then Shapton 4k, then blue Belgian with water, then coticule with water. Up till this point, I use figure-of-eight sharpening - 6-8 times per side of the razor till the razor seems to have some kind of suction on the stone. No back and forth between grits, and moving to a higher grit only when the current grit is done. Once this stage is finished, the edge is shiny, mirror polished, and it already has an edge that will shave, but with pulling.

Finally I dry the coticule and do single back and forth passes on the dry coticule, checking every 2-3 passes to see if the razor catches hair. If it does, I strop on a plain leather strop (actually just a piece of 5 year old handamerican leather that Keith had sent me as a sample) that I keep on the back side of the coticule for flatness. Then I test to see if the razor catches and cuts arm hair about 1 cm away from the arm. If it does, I stop at this point because it is here that I get my optimal shave - no pulling and no skin irritation. Doing this leaves micro scratches on the edge - no more mirror polish, but the razor cuts much better.

Takes about half an hour from establishment of a bevel to shave ready.

To go beyond that, I can do 8-10 single passes on a 30k Shapton and this will get me to Feather sharpness. 6-8 passes on 0.25 micron polycrystalline diamond paste followed by 6-8 passes on 0.1 micron poly diamond paste will take me much further. Unfortunately, at this time the blade begins to catch and slice skin too, making it useless for shaving. I have, for the sake of experiment, shaved with this level of sharpness - needs a very light touch, is very unforgiving - make a small mistake and you see blood immediately, but the edge remains strong - not overhoned or brittle.

But why bother - all I need for the upkeep of my razors is a coticule and a plain old piece of leather.

Regarding Feather sharpness and the devil's advocate point of view. My own $0.02 is from the experience of being shaved with a Feather. I went to Truefitt & Hill in London some months ago and was lucky enough to receive a "gentleman's shave" from the resident barber. An old Italian guy called Jimmy who, according to others there, was about as experienced and skillful an old-school barber as you get. (I certainly benefitted from some of his tutoring after the shave.)

The shave Jimmy gave me was light, deft, skillful, and incredibly relaxing. But it was not as close as a traditional straight. When I remarked on this (and I must have seemed a little disappointed) he was quick to explain that to get closer he would have had to exert some more pressure which risked stress on the skin due to the nature of the Feather.

I haven't received another shave from a Feather since, nor have I tried one myself, but I'm of the opinion that sharpness is not the ultimate arbiter of what's a great shave. Sure, there has to be a base level of sharpness, but I strongly believe the type of steel, type of hone, type of strop all play a part, which the Feather (being machined) does not. Sure, it's sharper than possibly any traditional straight, but that doesn't mean it gives a preferable shave. And I wouldn't assume it's all about technique either.