Thread: HHT off the Coticule

My honing technique is very simple - if I am creating a new bevel, I do it with a Shapton 2k. Then Shapton 4k, then blue Belgian with water, then coticule with water. Up till this point, I use figure-of-eight sharpening - 6-8 times per side of the razor till the razor seems to have some kind of suction on the stone. No back and forth between grits, and moving to a higher grit only when the current grit is done. Once this stage is finished, the edge is shiny, mirror polished, and it already has an edge that will shave, but with pulling.

Finally I dry the coticule and do single back and forth passes on the dry coticule, checking every 2-3 passes to see if the razor catches hair. If it does, I strop on a plain leather strop (actually just a piece of 5 year old handamerican leather that Keith had sent me as a sample) that I keep on the back side of the coticule for flatness. Then I test to see if the razor catches and cuts arm hair about 1 cm away from the arm. If it does, I stop at this point because it is here that I get my optimal shave - no pulling and no skin irritation. Doing this leaves micro scratches on the edge - no more mirror polish, but the razor cuts much better.

Takes about half an hour from establishment of a bevel to shave ready.

To go beyond that, I can do 8-10 single passes on a 30k Shapton and this will get me to Feather sharpness. 6-8 passes on 0.25 micron polycrystalline diamond paste followed by 6-8 passes on 0.1 micron poly diamond paste will take me much further. Unfortunately, at this time the blade begins to catch and slice skin too, making it useless for shaving. I have, for the sake of experiment, shaved with this level of sharpness - needs a very light touch, is very unforgiving - make a small mistake and you see blood immediately, but the edge remains strong - not overhoned or brittle.

But why bother - all I need for the upkeep of my razors is a coticule and a plain old piece of leather.

Regarding Feather sharpness and the devil's advocate point of view. My own $0.02 is from the experience of being shaved with a Feather. I went to Truefitt & Hill in London some months ago and was lucky enough to receive a "gentleman's shave" from the resident barber. An old Italian guy called Jimmy who, according to others there, was about as experienced and skillful an old-school barber as you get. (I certainly benefitted from some of his tutoring after the shave.)

The shave Jimmy gave me was light, deft, skillful, and incredibly relaxing. But it was not as close as a traditional straight. When I remarked on this (and I must have seemed a little disappointed) he was quick to explain that to get closer he would have had to exert some more pressure which risked stress on the skin due to the nature of the Feather.

I haven't received another shave from a Feather since, nor have I tried one myself, but I'm of the opinion that sharpness is not the ultimate arbiter of what's a great shave. Sure, there has to be a base level of sharpness, but I strongly believe the type of steel, type of hone, type of strop all play a part, which the Feather (being machined) does not. Sure, it's sharper than possibly any traditional straight, but that doesn't mean it gives a preferable shave. And I wouldn't assume it's all about technique either.

BBS smoothness is about cutting the hairs under the skin surely? As theyre pulled by the cut, they slice under the outer dermis. A lighter touch wouldnt achieve this so I think a balance between sharpness and touch needs to be sought in order to get the ultimate shave.

From the Wikipedia page on skin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermis_%28skin%29 - "The outermost layer of epidermis consists of 25 to 30 layers of dead cells."

If you are removing any cells past this point, you will experience irritation. If you go "under the skin" as you put it, regardless of blade sharpness, you will experience the worst razor burn imaginable. If there is any way there is to cut a hair below the skin line, it is by pulling the hair out and then cutting it. Fortunately, you will pull the hair out just a little bit if your razor is at the lower end of the sharpness scale, and your second stroke over this area will cut the pulled hair (sort of like what Gillette advertised with their two-blade razors).

If you have a really sharp edge like the feather, it won't pull the hair out on that first stroke, and the second stroke will do nothing but slice off the upper strata of the epidermis along with some more hair, leading to razor burn. Thus, a blade at the level of feather sharpness will actually shave less close than a blade at a lower level of sharpness for a given level of skin irritation.

But it will be better than a blade that is less sharp with only one stroke on any given area of skin.

If you want to prove this for yourself, do the following experiment:

Using your favorite razor on one side of your face and a feather on the other, shave such that on any given area of skin, you take exactly one stroke with the razor. With or across or against the grain is your choice, but you need to do the same thing on both sides of your face. In some shaving videos you'll see people doing the same area of skin multiple times in the same pass - basically scraping the same spot again and again before moving to a new spot. Don't do this, especially not on the feather side .

Which razor gives you the closer shave?

Originally Posted by poona

BBS smoothness is about cutting the hairs under the skin surely? As theyre pulled by the cut, they slice under the outer dermis. A lighter
touch wouldnt achieve this so I think a balance between sharpness and touch needs to be sought in order to get the ultimate shave.

Vijay,

You've raised some very interesting points here. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree at this point, but I do disagree on a few of your points (some of which are rhetorical, I know).

- The barber text I own doesn't talk about the HHT. It advocates the thumbnail test after honing and the thumbpad test after stropping. So at least in this edition, the HHT isn't held up as a standard.
- If some barber texts did teach the HHT, and I'm sure some did, these barbers were mainly using hones that we'd consider relatively low in grit. Some did use coticules, but the 6-10K barber hones seem like they were the standard in their day. I find that blades in the 6K range do the best on the HHT. After that, it's unpredictable. I get the best HHT results off the 4K Norton or 6K Belgian blue. I think it's because the edges are toothy at this level.
- Some guys have reported failing the HHT with a Feather blade. I actually find that my hand-honed blades often perform better on the HHT than my Feather did before I sold it. The Feather actually responded a lot like an overhoned 8K edge--it tugged the hair before cutting it.
- I don't think I buy your assertion that it's possible to make a straight shave for 5-10 shaves without stropping. The commercial razor companies have spent a lot of money researching ways to make a dulling blade feel sharper. That's where the coatings and machining techniques come in. They reduce friction, which makes the shave feel smoother. Disposable blades are also ground at a more acute angle, I believe. A straight is a compromise between sharpness and the ability to resharpen over and over.

Just my two cents. Great discussion--keep it coming.

Josh

Josh - great counterpoints, let me address each point one by one:

Your first and second points I completely agree with - it is entirely probable that with the advent of the synthetic barber hone, the HHT became a fairly reliable indicator of sharpness, and that is where the whole thing originated. This does mesh in well with the fact that edges off the Belgian blue usually pass the HHT. It also meshes in well with the fact that earlier books, like La Pogonotomia, which advocated Belgian coticules as the best razor hone do not mention the HHT. And I agree, it most likely is the microserrations that causes this to happen.

Well, it is possible that the Feather blade fails the HHT for some guys, but you have to agree, by and large, DE blades like Merkur, Derby etc pass the HHT with surprising frequency. I mean, the Merkur isn't even considered "too sharp", but it too does a good job at the HHT. A data point is a data point, and it has to be factored into any logical line of reasoning, which is why I hold on so tenaciously to this point, at least for the purposes of analysis and discussion.

It seems logically incongruent for some crappy steel hardened to Rc 56 to provide 5-6 shaves without stropping, but a premium steel hardened to Rc 63 has to be stropped every shave. Ipso facto this can't be about the steel or about the hardening - therefore it has to be about the sharpness of the edge.

Think of the humble kitchen knife cutting carrots on a chopping board. If your knife is completely dull, like a butter knife, forget it. If it is somewhat sharp, it will cut, but you'll be applying pressure and you'll be doing slicing or scything or sawing or whatever motions to get it to cut. Unfortunately, your additional pressure will also cause the edge to strike the chopping board with some force, dulling it further. You may then steel the knife, and the cycle goes on.

With the ultra sharp knives though, you'll find that you use much less force, you can stop smoothly before the edge touches the chopping board etc, and generally you can keep your knife in top shape with little or no steeling. Your cutting technique needs to be good however.

It would be logical to assume a similar situation for razors, with the chopping board replaced by a new line of hair every time one line is cut. Yes, because there are air gaps between hairs, the razor will tend to "hit" the hair as a knife hits a chopping board.

To me it is borne out by experiment that a sharper razor needs lesser and lesser stropping, and I am certain that this is a reproducible result. Therefore I disagree that razor manufacturers put in teflon or fluorocarbon or platinum coatings to make a dull edge seem sharper. No, I believe that they make the edge sharper by design so it can be used without stropping.

Why then the coatings? I believe it is like this: if you have a really sharp, and I mean really sharp knife and you try slicing carrots, you'll find that the knife "binds", i.e., sticks to whatever it is cutting. This is probably because the cut is so fine that suction comes into play and causes the knife to bind. Japanese knives such as the santoku solve this by adding dimples to the blade, which cause air leaks and release the suction.

I believe that with a very fine edge on a razor, one sees exactly the same phenomenon: the razor tends to bind with the hair, making excessive force necessary to move the blade, and because of the higher sharpness level, this causes razor burn at best and nicks and cuts at worst. Manufacturers add all sorts of coatings to reduce this friction so that the extremely sharp blade will slide through the hair it is cutting smoothly so people will use less force, and cut themselves less. Witness the Mach 3 design - it was supposed to be used like an artist holds a brush - to reduce the risk that someone would apply pressure while shaving.

With the slightly duller edge, there is no binding, but you need stropping.
It is eminently possible to sharpen your Rc 63 straight to far beyond the sharpness level of an Rc 56 Feather - but you can't coat the blade, so you'll get some pulling (not the painful variety) just a feeling that the blade is sticking to the hair (a "what is wrong with the shave cream today?" feeling), and if you increase pressure, you'll cut yourself. Bad, bad shaving edge, in other words.

And this is why I don't believe that the Feather edge is the Holy Grail of Sharpness. I totally agree that a straight is the best possible compromise - you have a smooth shaving edge, but you need to strop and microscopically realign the edge every so often.

this is a very interesting discussion and I am following it with great interest.

Personally, I agree with Vijay's ideas of personal adaptation to specific sharpness / smoothness and a optimal comfort edge range (for a particular person). I also use HHT all the time, with varying success (=varying shave quality correlation), and in combination with other tests.

Now: a *crappy* blade and 5-6 good shaves without stropping? - maybe I myself was never thrilled that much with DEs, but I didn't try many, and probably technique was a big hurdle. (Actually, I have used a DE or a multi-blade for many more shaves than that, like 1/2 year - but in reallity for very infrequent shaves). It may be very possible to get 5-6 or more good shaves without stropping a straight too (as Vijay says) - but I like the shaves better when I strop right before I use the razor. Not several days prior to use, not the previous day, not 3 hours before the shave. On the other hand, I think the Germans are famous for using very little stropping, like 10 or fewer passes on leather, and I am not sure if they do it every shave. I find I prefer a different approach.

Logically, we must accept the possibility that if we were stropping the DEs or re-coating them - whatever, they may serve even better, and longer - no?

Old timers say leather stropping only dresses the edge - this may be the equivalent to the DE coatings (and possibly - even the inspiration for these coatings, for all I know)

I had some other points and ideas but I forgot them, lol

Cheers
Ivo

You make some interesting points. Let me weigh in.

First, the HHT has not been dismissed lightly. It hasn't really been dismissed at all, at least by me. It's one test of an edge that tells you something about the edge. A thumbnail test is another test. For me, shaving is the best test. The HHT has rightly been put in its place though as a subjective test. It was used for a long time because it was the easiest test to perform, anyone could do it, and because it gave a pretty good indication. It still does with many folks. It's also fun to do.

Second, because an edge is super sharp doesn't mean it is the best edge. The trick is in the word "best". When edges are super sharp they tend not to stay that way very long. It's a tradeoff or compromise. Double bevels will get you an amazingly sharp edge if you do it right. The edge also won't last very long! There's just not enough steel to support the edge. This is not a problem for many as their goal is a super sharp edge and they don't mind honing and stropping. Others only want to hone when necessary and a great edge is good enough.