Thread: Norton kit arrived!! One question...

If it's not honning up well, wait for your scope. You will be surprised what the edge looks like with one of those.

Phil

I suppose I'm going to have to, because I'm if I can get an edge on this thing.

I'll do some MORE searches and try to figure out what else I can do - hell, it's not like I can shave with it anyway.

Ok...now that I've gone outside, had a cigarette and kicked things around - how can you tell when it's time to go to the next higher stone?

I've spent the last 3 hours doing pyramids and checking the edge and I can't tell any difference in it - it's still as dull as a butter knife. I see people talking about popping hairs off the 4k - what's the secret?

I've taped the spine, made sure the blade was flat on the hone, no pressure and all that - but nothing happens.

Edit to add - by "nothing happens", there's no difference in the feel of the blade on the hone and no difference in sound that I can detect, but I'm half deaf and have a ac/heater unit running 5 feet away from me.

Mike,

Can you tell us a little more about the razor you're using? Is it new, vintage....?

The problem you're encountering is that you don't know where your edge is. It could be pretty close to shave-ready, but more than likely it's pretty far away.

Do a search for "thumbnail test," read some of the posts carefully, and give it a try on your razor. Let us know how the edge feels.

Usually I find that when a razor "just won't get sharp," the issue is that the factory-ground bevel is a little too steep. When this is the case, you're actually honing the upper part of the bevel, not the very edge of the blade. It takes a good bit of work to reset a bevel that's off kilter like this, but once you do it will stay that way permanently.

Pyramids polish an already sharp edge nicely. If your edge isn't progressing, I'd suggest sticking with the 4K hone for a while until the razor passes the thumbnail test. (How long? That's an impossible question to answer. After I learned how to get a shave-ready edge with my Norton, it still took me two to four hours to get an eBay razor shaving.)

The good news is that once the bevel is properly set, one pyramid will be all you need to polish it to a shave-ready edge. Now when I work on an eBay razor, I typically spend about 80 to 90 percent of my honing time on establishing a good bevel. It only takes five or 10 minutes after that to polish it to a comfortable edge.

Just my two cents,
Josh

Mike,
One suggestion is to be sure that at the end of each stroke you're maintaining the flatness of the stroke and that you're consistently turning it over on the spine and not rocking it toward the edge at all - if you do it'll fold for sure. I know this is elementary but it's easy to get it going and add that little flourish that'll blow the edge. BTW I don't try to pop hairs off of the 4k. I just do the pyramids and try the edge on my luxurious arm hairs (without dragging against the skin - I'm not going for metrosexual arms here!) and then follow up with my .5 and .25 diamond pasted hanging strop. Good luck, you'll get there.

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Mike,

Can you tell us a little more about the razor you're using? Is it new, vintage....?

The problem you're encountering is that you don't know where your edge is. It could be pretty close to shave-ready, but more than likely it's pretty far away.

Do a search for "thumbnail test," read some of the posts carefully, and give it a try on your razor. Let us know how the edge feels.

Usually I find that when a razor "just won't get sharp," the issue is that the factory-ground bevel is a little too steep. When this is the case, you're actually honing the upper part of the bevel, not the very edge of the blade. It takes a good bit of work to reset a bevel that's off kilter like this, but once you do it will stay that way permanently.

Pyramids polish an already sharp edge nicely. If your edge isn't progressing, I'd suggest sticking with the 4K hone for a while until the razor passes the thumbnail test. (How long? That's an impossible question to answer. After I learned how to get a shave-ready edge with my Norton, it still took me two to four hours to get an eBay razor shaving.)

The good news is that once the bevel is properly set, one pyramid will be all you need to polish it to a shave-ready edge. Now when I work on an eBay razor, I typically spend about 80 to 90 percent of my honing time on establishing a good bevel. It only takes five or 10 minutes after that to polish it to a comfortable edge.

Just my two cents,
Josh

Great points from Honemeister Josh! If the bevel is off, it's a different story from just honing up a properly bevelled edge.

Hi guys - I've had a bit of sleep and I'm feeling a bit sheepish over my outburst. After spending 3+ hours trying to get an initial edge on the blade, my arm/shoulder was tired and sore and I was QUITE frustrated...please accept my apologies.

The razor I'm currently working on is an old Boker 6/8. There's hone wear on the spine. It was marginally shaveable but pulled a lot. I was able to improve it some on my pasted strop before I spilled water on it (see my post in the newbie section for details ), but it's gone downhill since then.

I hadn't done a thumbnail test on it, since I had read that it could dull the edge. I can definitely say that the blade is duller than it was, to the point that it barely shaves hair on my arm and pulls a lot doing it. It doesn't 'grab' the hair if I pass the blade above the skin.

How much "draw" should I feel on the thumbnail test? I've read where it should be smooth, but should it slide easily across the nail or should it take some "pull" due to biting into the nail? Also, I recall from reading Juranovitch's sharpening book (way back when) that he recommended testing blade edges cutting in at a 45 degree angle to the testing surface - should I do that on the thumbnail test, or should the nail be perpendicular to the blade?

In working on the bevel, should I try to raise a burr on both sides first so I *know* I'm beveled all the way to the edge, or should I just work it for a bit, then check it against the thumbnail? Would it behoove me to try to set the bevel first on the 1k stone and then go to the 4k?

I'm being very careful to keep my strokes slow and flat and to turn the blade over toward the spine - I can hear the blade work against the hone on Lynn's video, but I can't hear the same thing when I do it - is it possible I'm using too *little* pressure and not actually getting any action on the blade? There's very very little metal coming off the blade.

When you talk about testing on your arm hair - does it lop the hair off, grab it...what are you looking for at that point? I'm trying to get a baseline for what tests/what results to shoot for in the beginning, until I can figure out how the blade needs to be performing to shave well for *me*.

Mike,

OK, that helps a lot. There are two possibilities here. Either the razor is close and you've overhoned it, which means it just needs some gentle honing to coax it back to shave-ready.

The other is that the edge was sharp but fragile from age and corrosion. I'm betting on that one. If that's the case, you'll need to clean off the layer of junk metal before you get down to the good stuff.

I use a 1200-grit hone all the time to set my bevels, but I'm going to advise you to steer clear of it right now. Consider the 1K a fallback, an alternative to hurling your razor into the wall if you get frustrated. The 4K will get you where you need to go with some patience. Later when you know what you're looking for, the 1K will be a great tool.

On a razor, raising a burr isn't usually a good idea. The edge is so fine that when the burr breaks off, it does major damage. This isn't a problem on a knife, where you want some teeth to aid with cutting. But a toothy razor edge will rip your face off.

I'd venture that you're probably using too little pressure at this stage. You never want to bear down on the blade, or it'll flex and you won't be honing the very edge. But you should be applying some firm pressure--enough that you're confident that the blade will stay flat on the hone. The standard advice is "one to two pounds of pressure," which is hard to gauge but good to keep in mind. The ultra light pressure thing comes in right at the end--really just the last handful of strokes.

On the thumbnail test, I keep the blade at a 90-degree angle to my nail. It shouldn't slide at all. It should grip and dig in, requiring you to pull it firmly to move it. But it shouldn't feel gritty--it should be a smooth bite. This test is really amazing, I think. You can feel chips in the blade, wire edges, smooth spots in the bevel...

Off the 1K, the razor should shave arm hair with gentle pressure. (I call this "knife sharp.") From the 4K, it should shave pretty well with light to no pressure. (This is for my arm hair, which is so fine that it's almost blond. I have thick hair on my head and this fine stuff on my arms... I'm a freak of nature. )

And hey, no problem on the outburst. I still get to that point every once in a while.

Good luck,
Josh

• Don't throw the razor into the wall! (NOW ya tell me... )(kidding)
• Use the 4k with SOME pressure but not trying to smash the blade through the hone.
• Thumbnail test at 90 degrees, should be a smooth feeling on the nail but require some force to pull across the nail due to the sharp edge biting in.
• Test on arm after the 4k with LIGHT pressure, should shave clean and not pull or leave hair.

Am I missing anything else?

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

On a razor, raising a burr isn't usually a good idea. The edge is so fine that when the burr breaks off, it does major damage. This isn't a problem on a knife, where you want some teeth to aid with cutting. But a toothy razor edge will rip your face off.

I was thinking more on the idea of raising the burr solely to make sure I'm all the way to the edge, then grinding it off - I certainly wouldn't want to leave a burr on the shaving edge (although in retrospect I can see how it COULD happen).

Learning to hone can be really interesting, don't you think?