Thread: "Hone ready" revisited

Originally Posted by Doc

even if they hone it lifted woulnt you have a decent bevel that you could maintain by taping the spine? also would the hone wear be significant that the marks could not polish it out after honing? No trying to be argumentative just trying to learn

Most people hone without taping the spine. Also the only way that your idea would work would be if the amount that they lifted the spine during the initial honing was exactly the same as the width of the tape that the person used for later honings which would be very unlikely. As far as polishing out the scratches, TI and DOVO use very course stones for main honing (then attempt to polish the edge with very fine stones without sufficient intermediate steps) so it would likely take a lot of work to get out the scratches if they layed the spine down. Unfortunately this is just the way that it is, wishing that it were different will not change the situation. Just learn to deal with the double bevel issue using a marker and/or microscope and you will be fine.

I agree with the setting the bevel first. Before I touch steel to stone, I look at under the microscope. From this look I can tell if I need to start with a 4K or 1K. It saves a lot of guessing. I'm also able to determine if the steel is any good. If looks like it might crumble, I'll take to the 220 for a few swipes but getting the edge ready to take a bevel is paramount in my thinking. When all the factors are taken care of; it's amazing how fast a shaving edge will show up.

David,
Unfortunately my test razor I sent to you got damaged some (folded edge). It was a little spot but I was amazed at what Josh and I had to do to work it out. He left me in good shape after many passes on his 1200 diamond plate. I spent some time yesterday on my 4K removing the 1200 scratches, then a little bit of time on the 8K to polish. Stropped on chrome-ox felt then leather.

Best shave to date with the test razor.

I was really not joking in my quotes post from the ohio get together. Josh stated if you have spent ten minutes on the 8k and not popping hairs, you're wasting your time. The bevel is not there yet. The proof was looking at 2 of Lynns' hones. 4K lapped down to nothing yet the 8k side is thick as could be. This doesn't apply to regular maintenance, but for edge restoration it's true.

The microscope is cool and lets you look at your scratch patterns and polish. But with Josh showing how to examine it in the light with no magnification was a big help as well in the early stages of honing. Light reflection will tell you a lot.

Reading it and applying can get you close, but seeing it first hand kicks the door wide open. Rolling the blade for smiles and odd heel toe patterns. Seeing it first hand made me say "ah, now I see what they were saying".

I was not the individual of Joshs' post, but the time he spent with me was invaluable. Thanks Josh.

Jerry

Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

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One of the most important fundamentals of honing a knife is establishing a burr. The burr tells you that you have actually hit the cutting edge and that side of the bevel is sharp. The thumbnail, thumbpad, and HHT can be used to accomplish the same thing with razors; however, most beginners have not yet learned to use these tests effectively. Based on my experiences with taking over from where beginners could not get their razors sharp, in almost every case the problem was that the razors were not sharp on the low grits and the bevel was not properly established. One time just for the heck of it I honed a razor like a knife by actually honing on one side of my DMT-E with some torque until I raised a burr. Then I repeated the process on the other side. The razor sharpened up to a shaving sharp edge quickly and easily after that because the bevel had clearly been established (I do not advocate using this method, it was just an experiment). Of course the other option is to just do progressions and test shave until your razor shaves well enough for your taste.

I find it extremely interesting that Dovo actually raises a burr, on purpose, on all their new razors when they begin the sharpening process. This is reported to be done right before the razor goes to a Belgian Old Rock.*

Raising a burr before the Belgian is/was a Dovo standard practice. Maybe a good method for the rest of us? I'm not recommending it, just wondering...(and trying to start hate-and-dissent maybe)


*reference: Razor Sharpening And Using Tips.pdf

Thanks for the link Sticky, I was not aware that DOVO advocated raising a burr in the sharpening process. Although I am not sure if it is the best/most efficient way to hone, honing until a small burr is raised would at least tell someone that they have hit the edge on that particular side. My experience tells me that it works well without any bad effects on the shaving edge as long as you carefully remove the burr before moving on in the stone progression via light alternating strokes. I will continue to use my alternating strokes and sharpness tests though.

Originally Posted by kilowattkid

I was really not joking in my quotes post from the ohio get together. Josh stated if you have spent ten minutes on the 8k and not popping hairs, you're wasting your time. The bevel is not there yet. The proof was looking at 2 of Lynns' hones. 4K lapped down to nothing yet the 8k side is thick as could be. This doesn't apply to regular maintenance, but for edge restoration it's true.

Kilowattkid, it sounds like you really got a lot out of the one on one help from Josh. I wholeheartedly agree with your findings/statements. Certainly if you are not making progress on the 8K after 10 min then you have more work to do on the lower grits; however, I would even go further. I would say that if you have not made quick and significant progress on the Norton 8K after 10-25 strokes then you definately need to go back to at least the Norton 4K. In my opinion this is why Lynn's pyramid method works so well. In effect you are setting the bevel with the 4K then quickly polishing it (about 5 strokes on the 8K is all that is needed to get the effect of the polish) and test shaving. If the razor is not shaving well then you go back to the 4K to try to make the bevel better then polish and test shave again until you hit sufficient sharpness. I do things differently in that I have tests that reliably tell me if I have done enough work on the lower grits, so then I can just move on to the high grits and polish to a shave ready edge. Both methods will work very well if used properly.

In geometric terms, when the flat area on one side of the spine coincides with the complete flat area of the bevel on the same side of the blade in a perfect plane and same on the opposite side of the blade, thus the two intersecting planes create the edge, is that what setting the bevel is? And when this geometric cross section is achieved, then the polishing begins? And if not, work with the coarse stones is required until it is? Assuming that the hone is perfectly flat, then the flat area of the spine and the complete flat area of the bevel is in full contact on the hone at the same time provided the bevel is established correctly?

I'm new to this and have not honed a single razor, and I need to understand this so that I'll know what I'm trying to accomplish when I jump in to learn how to hone one.

GeNn

GeNn,

Geometry wasn't my strong suit, but it sounds like you've got it right.

A common fault seems to be achieving that intersection on portions of the blade, while other parts have a less than perfect edge. The razor will shave, but it could shave better.

Josh

In geometric terms, when the flat area on one side of the spine coincides with the complete flat area of the bevel on the same side of the blade in a perfect plane and same on the opposite side of the blade, thus the two intersecting planes create the edge, is that what setting the bevel is? And when this geometric cross section is achieved, then the polishing begins? And if not, work with the coarse stones is required until it is?

Yes your thoughts are absolutely correct. The planes of the two angles must completely intersect at the edge all along the cutting edge (from heal to toe) This is the principal for both knives and razors (or anything else sharp for that matter).

Assuming that the hone is perfectly flat, then the flat area of the spine and the complete flat area of the bevel is in full contact on the hone at the same time provided the bevel is established correctly?

Yes this is correct as well. The problem is that most beginners DRASTICALLY underestimate the amount of work that it can take to take a rounded dull edge to a sharp edge with the course stones (the two planes intersecting as you said). Many times a relatively significant amount of metal needs to be removed, especially with the eBay and antique razors that beginners are advised to practice on. Experienced knife sharpeners know when the plane has hit the edge when a burr forms on the other side; straight razor honers generally do not perform this test so a lot of times they stop short of hitting the actual edge. If the sharp edge is not completely established with the course stones then you will be polishing a round edge that will not get sharp.

Simply make the bevels by/on the cutting edge meet at the edge. Then polish those bevels using the same angle, using a finer grit hone or paste.

The spine is simply a guide, laid on the hone, to maintain the same angles on your cutting bevels.