Thread: Norton Honing Pyramid

You're welcome, I forgot to add "remember to keep your thumb slightly wet". If done carelessly, you stand a good chance of wetting your thumb with some blood...

Excellent question.

From the Norton Pyramid Honing Guide:

• "Please note that this only applies to the use of a Norton waterstone. It does not apply to Japanese waterstones, a Belgian stone, Arkansas stones, classic barber hones , pasted strops or sandpaper."

If it would "work" with the Norton, then why wouldn't it work with any other combination hone? Because it has not been tested on those hones. I don't think it makes any sense to put 4k striations on an 8k bevel either. How and why would going to a coarser grit improve the polished edge from a finer grit?

My conclusion is that the pyramid scheme is designed to prevent new users from forming a wire edge. Nothing more, nothing less. Exactly correct. A few years ago Lynn Abrams noticed that most of the razors being sent to him were overhoned so he developed the method. I put it into a written format. At that time the most common stone was the Norton. Lynn also found that the most common reason for guys dropping out was the difficulty of honing. If you watch what you're doing, a wire edge won't be a problem. To do that a person has to know what to look for and have the proper tools. If it becomes a problem, simply wipe it off the edge and hone again. That assumes that a new guy knows how to "wipe off" a wire edge, most do not.

I am not picking on Sticky, just using his post to respond to.
Sorry I am so late to this thread.



If there's another reason for using the pyramid method, on only a Norton, I'd be interested in hearing it too. Because we do not have the data from other hones.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I can see how going back to 4k every five or ten 8k strokes can prevent a new fella' from getting a wire edge. I just have a lot of trouble with the proposition that applying a rougher 4k finish will improve an 8k finish. It also seems to me that getting a nice evenly finished 8k edge will take far longer to do if I keep applying 4k (or 1k, et al.) striations to it.

I am assuming that the main reasons for going back to the 4k is:

• preventing a wire edge
• if five 8k strokes doesn't improve the edge then you know you do not have a full bevel properly established on the 4k yet, try again...

So, especially for the new user, using pyramids is thought to be a quicker and safer (no wire) way to get a bevel and shaving edge w/o having to learn the other intricacies?

I was under the distinct impression that pyramiding did need to be taught (hence the existence of the "Norton Pyramid Honing Guide").

Not trying to be argumentative. It's just that when I compared a pyramid method to normal progression (4 razors each, in various states of sharpness), it took me longer to do. In one case about three times longer. And the edges were a bit rougher.

The principal idea of the pyramid method is to "sneak up" on a shaving sharp edge without overhoning. Going back to the 4K is to further refine the bevel. The difficulty is to know when the bevel off the 4K has been sufficently refined. Remember, this is designed for new guys that have no prior honing experience.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Thanks guys,

The pyramid actually isn't mine either. It was taught to me. I have found that after honing thousands and thousands of razors that it is the most repeatable and consistent method for honing razors out there. It is the easiest to learn for new people. It is progressive and incremental. Simply put, it works! There have been several variations that people have found to work but the principle has remained sound. People, especially knife guys and those naturally inclined to nay say have tried to poo poo this method for sand as already said, "Go For It".

Have fun,

Lynn

Thanks for the update on the history.

The primary problem that new guys have is that they have no experience with sharpening anything. The only thing I had sharpened before were plane blades and chisels but not much of either one. It is frustratingly difficult for a new guy to know when the 4K bevel is sharp enough t move on to the 8K. It is also difficult to use any of the sharpness tests and be able to judge when a razor is "shave ready". So far, I have not seen anyone put forth a method of sharpness testing that a new guy can use, that can be communicated in writing ,that guarantees a very good shaving edge.

This stuff is not rocket science but it does require practice and experience. Thats why the ultimate test is the shave test.


BTW, the number of strokes used on the 8K is an approximation. It needs to be adjusted for the steel in the razor. Some steels will require more.

Just my two cents,

This whole thread is reminding me of a story a professional dog trainer I know tells.

She was hosting a weekend seminar and planed on using a random dog as a demo dog so she could demonstrate to the attendees what she was doing. The owner of the dog she chose had no leash for the dog and she, not expecting this, didn't have many with her. The only leash she had was this old ratty cotton leash all tied up in knots and ready for the trash so she used it for the weekend. She taught the dog to obey her in every way and gave great detail about how she achieved each step. After about 20 hours of instruction the dog was working great and the crowd was enthralled by her expertise. At this point she opened the floor to questions. The very first question was......"how many knots do you need to tie in the leash for the dog to get that good"

Thats a good one.

Reminds me of a story too:

It reminds me of a carpenter that liked nails. He wanted everyone to use nails for everything. It was the best approach for him, so therefore it was the best approach. Then an apprentice came along and he believed in using screws. Screws were the best he argued, more secure. The carpenter said no, nails were better, faster; nails should be used. They both argued for a while about it. Which they should use, which way was better. They argued constantly about it.

One day the foreman stopped by, watched the argument ensue for a bit and said:

"You're both idiots"

Well you didn't expect the story to be all that funny did you?

Originally Posted by randydance062449

The primary problem that new guys have is that they have no experience with sharpening anything. The only thing I had sharpened before were plane blades and chisels but not much of either one. It is frustratingly difficult for a new guy to know when the 4K bevel is sharp enough t move on to the 8K. It is also difficult to use any of the sharpness tests and be able to judge when a razor is "shave ready". So far, I have not seen anyone put forth a method of sharpness testing that a new guy can use, that can be communicated in writing ,that guarantees a very good shaving edge.

This stuff is not rocket science but it does require practice and experience. Thats why the ultimate test is the shave test.
...

What I highlighted in blue is pretty much my whole point. It all hinges on learning the edge tests, especially knowing when the edge/bevel is really done. Once you know when you have the bevels right, you're home free, a return to the 4k to finish a bevel won't be necessary. The marker and TNT together are very easy to learn and conclusive regarding a good bevel.

If you don't know how to use the TPT, "mow hair" test (or HHT variation), marker test, and TNT; then one will have to use something like the pyramid scheme. The only problem there is that the pyramid scheme seems to require the TPT too. Why not just learn all the tests and be done with it?

My posts are under the assumption that anyone can learn, and most importantly use, all of the above tests in well under 30 minutes. The only equipment required is a DE razor blade or other razor sharp edge. Any new user needs only a small amount of verbal instruction to learn them.

As an example: I know several pre-schoolers who learned all of the above tests. Not one took longer than 30 minutes to learn them all. They did practice longer though, by choice; the little maniacs love those sharp edges. Surely an adult razor user can learn the tests in the same time frame. Learning the tests is easier than memorizing a pyramid table; and far more useful.

In this respect it would be nice to have a single post that describes all of the tests in clear terms and is easy to link to for the new people. Unless such a sticky already exists.

Originally Posted by Sticky

What I highlighted in blue is pretty much my whole point. It all hinges on learning the edge tests, especially knowing when the edge/bevel is really done. Once you know when you have the bevels right, you're home free, a return to the 4k to finish a bevel won't be necessary. The marker and TNT together are very easy to learn and conclusive regarding a good bevel.

I'm in almost total agreement with Sticky's viewpoint on this whole thread. I slightly disagree on the TNT: in my experience it tells me that I'm nearly there with the bevel, it usually takes a little more "bevel setting work", before I'm pleased with the TPT results and decide to move on to the polishing stage of honing. In my case, that means moving from the DMT-E (which I consider a "bevel-setting" stone) to the Belgian Blue which I use as a go-between to the coticule (my polishing stone).

Originally Posted by Sticky

In this respect it would be nice to have a single post that describes all of the tests in clear terms and is easy to link to for the new people. Unless such a sticky already exists.

It seems to me such a guide already exists, and is probably the most referred to external document in the SRP forum: David's (heavydutysg135) guide "in exile" on Badger&Blade http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640
I agree that such a welll-formulated guide should have it's permanent spot on SRP.

I don't doubt for one second that the pyramid-methods leads to excellent honing results for those that use the Norton 4-8K combination stone. I understand it's an excellent way to prevent overhoning, apparently a real issue when learning the skill on a Norton (I don't own one myself). In ignorance, I've tried to translate it to the BBW - coticule combination (which is confusingly enough also often rated 4K -8K) and the only thing that would lead to was frustration.
Then I went with those that advocate the "set bevel, do the tests, then polish bevel" approach and found out that honing a razor isn't black magic after all.
Clearly, there are two honing-schools on SRP. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to co-exist peacefully. The first few weeks after I arrived on SRP, I did what I reckon most guys do when they get here: I browsed and searched through the various sections for answers to my many questions. When it came to honing, I ended up with a great deal of mixed information. Two clear and complete guides of both methods in the library would have saved me four months of trial and error. I just would have picked the one that suited me and my hones best. Of course I still would have needed the guidance of the forthcoming people that are out there on the forum, but I'm sure it would have prevented me from a lot of idiotic attempts to buff a dull knife to razor sharpness.
Bart.

I use both methods and I find that both methods require study of its practice and methodology, the pyramid being easier, the progressive making more inherent sense on the surface. Having been one of the few people to ever attempt to walk someone through honing step by step progressively through this site I have a particular appreciation for the pyramid, but I look forward to both of you spelling the process out in a single post (or why not an entire thread with pictures). I await it anxiously. It is, technically, the final step that the progressive camp (which I sit firmly in with atleast one foot) has just never accomplished. I kid you not, I remember the pyramid guys having meetings to discuss this stuff, I thought for a moment they were going to have a convention.

The main problem for the progressive group has always been a lack of clarity, neither of you have done anything more than describe how easy it is, but still have failed to provide even a modicum of guidance (although using a DE blade is a great idea), which is fine in this thread. From my perspective it was kind of rude to even post in this thread in the first place.

I also invite you to try the overhoning route as it too has a proven track record, far greater than the progressive route, although never discussed on this site (it is only practiced in an actual classroom hosted by TI).

But hopefully I'll see your post or thread soon. In the mean time you lack any comparitive data to work from (or in the case of my experience level, to correct). I'm convinced though that I could do it, given the interest and time, so I don't see why you guys can't, or put another way, why don't you guys just do it and be done with it. I mean, technically, your camp has been threatening us all with this post you describe for years. I think, if the pyramid group had a lawyer, he would say "put up or shut-up". Sadly, it doesn't.

And you can't act like little babies about it either, you have to act like men. You can't get all uptight when people say it sounds too complex or seems like it would take too long to learn. You have to keep articulating your point of view and develop a track record of success, or at the very least start describing your thoughts in several threads instead of saying the proven methods don't work for you. Ultimately, you have to be able to weather through at least the same amount of criticizism that arrived in this thread which was not titled "Which method is better?", but rather only about the Pyramid system (I hate the word "scheme" btw).

And then, when your done, your also going to have to deal with me again, because ultimately I think some methods are better for some people and I think most people should start out on the pyramid until they learn a good stroke (which is corrected by repeated 8K passes) then move on to a progressive approach (especially if they have some honing experience). And I have more experience teaching honing, than most of the people on this site put together.

But it would be great if you put half as much effort into creating a thread about your method as you do criticizing the ones that have already been proven. Its fundamentally silly for us not to have several threads on how to hone (with pictures) on this forum. It would be better for you to establish what you guys think is right and then compare it, advocate it, support it, or whatever it needs to eventually become proven. Why not start a different thread and discuss it, come to a concensus (if possible), and then post it. It would be a wicked cool thread, no matter how you look at it.