Thread: Norton Honing Pyramid

Can someone please explain this pyramid to me?? What are the meanings of all the numbers??

Many thanks

Rick

YES ; i wouldnt mind knowing what all the pyramid thing is all about

Ok... very common question. What Alan has shown you is the widely accepted "Norton Honing Pyramid". It is meant to be used on Norton 4000 Grit and 8000 grit waterstones, and nothing else.

For example when Alan says:

4........3/5

That means its itteration #4 and you should do three "round trips" (One stroke down, one stroke back) on the 4k stone and 5 "round trips" on the 8k stone


9……1/5

This means its itteration #9 and you should do 1 "round trip" on the 4k stone and 5 "round trips" on the 8k stone

You do them in order, and yes you are constantly alternating between the 4k and 8k stones. The best description and demonstration is on Lynn's CD which is available in the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum.

Oh... and +1 for this to become a sticky!

I have a conceptual question for the pyramid experts that I have never really understood even though the method has worked for me at times. For the “conservative” pyramid listed here there a total of 22 passes on the 4K and 50 passes on the 8K mixed in with the total of 22 4K passes in increments of 5 (if my math is correct). On the aggressive pyramid there are a total of 38 passes on the 4K with 35 8K passes mixed in the 4K passes in increments of 5. The author advocates doing this “progression” and then only test shaving at the end. If you are not going to advocate sharpness testing or shave testing after every “step” in the pyramid (4K and then polishing on the 8K) then wouldn’t it make more sense to just perform all of your 4K passes then flip your stone over to the 8K for your 5 passes (this seems to be the prescribed number of 8K passes that it takes to remove the 4K scratch pattern) then test shave the razor? It seems to be a waste of time (and your 8K stone) to go from the 4K to the 8K and then go right back to the 4K without performing any types of tests whether they are shaving or other. I have studied knife sharpening from several of the masters and nobody has ever mentioned going back and forth from a lower grit to a higher grit and back to the same lower grit.

I've always tested after each iteration. I'm not sure where you came to that assumption, although I've seen this mentioned a few times elsewhere, years ago. If I remember correctly the Aggressive pyramid leads you to the Conservative Pyramid, so they become additive. So the Aggressive pyramid is a total of 60 4K passes (I didn't check your math) and the Conservative is only 20+. The other assumption that has followed posts was the idea that there were a specific number of steps or that the edge was finished when done. Most beginners only produced a sharp edge, though sharper than most so called "experts".

Otherwise, you might have to ask Randy(Dance) as I remember the original instructions and I also remember it being a little different, though I always thought that since it was the only system that remotely attempted to provide a structure to honing that anyone with a brain new it was a "guide". I've always found questions like "Why do we do 3 passes at step X instead of 4?" sort of funny and based on people not understanding (or accepting) the basic concept, which was the whole point. Usually the people who don't believe in it are often being interrupted by those succeeding with it, though I assume that all honing, regardless of structure, is going to lead to sharpness.

After re-reading your first post, I see that you advocate using the thumb pad test to assess sharpness/progress after each step on the pyramid. This was not covered in Lynn's DVD, so I am incorrectly assumed that you did it the same way. Sorry about that.

David

First, no problem. Second, I didn't type it up. I think Randy did, a few years ago. Most of the advice given to using the pryamid over the years included the advice to "test-shave often". I haven't seen the DVD, so that is why I don't follow a lot of the uncertainty. This system has been in use, and well proven, for atleast 6 years that I can recall. I only retyped it, and stickied it, because it was in PDF format.

Great to see this as a sticky. I honed my first razor, with a good degree of success today (without the pyramid method), but am having more trouble with my 2nd razor.
Intuitively, I think the success of this method lies in the fact that you are sharpening AND polishing the edge at each step. So when you test, and find that you have a sharp edge, it has already been polished, and is ready to go. If you have a good feel for an edge (which only comes with experience), you may feel more comfortable with the more traditional approach of sharpening, and then polishing the edge.

Originally Posted by Rosco

...
If you have a good feel for an edge (which only comes with experience), you may feel more comfortable with the more traditional approach of sharpening, and then polishing the edge.

I'd agree with that. There's a very simple way to quickly develop an excellent feel for testing an edge, in a very fast time frame.

Pick up a cheap pack of DE razor blades (only one is really needed), and practice the TPT. You will develop your ability very rapidly. Trust me...

Link to "how to do it".

Originally Posted by Sticky

I'd agree with that. There's a very simple way to quickly develop an excellent feel for testing an edge, in a very fast time frame.

Pick up a cheap pack of DE razor blades (only one is really needed), and practice the TPT. You will develop your ability very rapidly. Trust me...

Link to "how to do it".

I have a pack of blades from my shavette, so I'm going to try this. Thanks for the idea.

Connor