Thread: Why use an X-pattern on a wide hone?

Originally Posted by Bruce

The X-pattern mitigates the uneven pressures applied to the blade by your hand and also compensates for a less than perfectly flat or uniformly textured hone. At least this is how I interepret the practice.

Originally Posted by SteveS

Even with a perfectly flat hone, many blades are not perfectly straight, so the entire length of the blade does not contact the stone at the same time. By using an x-stroke, you improve the odds (considerably!) of having the entire length of the blade's edge contact the hone at some point during the stroke.

+1

You also get the striations in the direction shown in barber manuals and most hone instructions. In theory that will give smoother cutting while shaving.

I tried it with straight 90 degree-to-edge striations and "barber manual" style. My results agreed with the theory.

I have a related question: When honing in the "barber manual" style on an 8 x 3 hone, would not the top half (or tip half) or so end up with more cumulative contact time with the hone than the bottom half, since the top is in contact with the stone during the entire lap?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

I have a related question:

Why do the X pattern on a hone narrower than the razor, and not simply move the razor over the stone at a say 30-45 degree angle (whatever it takes to make the blade fit the stone), keeping all of the blade in contact at once?

This works using the inverse angle, but your picture, a razor without scales is a funny ironic dramatization of the difference between theory and reality. Your method would work great, assuming you had a razor without scales.

Originally Posted by RayG

I have a related question: When honing in the "barber manual" style on an 8 x 3 hone, would not the top half (or tip half) or so end up with more cumulative contact time with the hone than the bottom half, since the top is in contact with the stone during the entire lap?

The base gets a little more pressure to compensate. I sometimes find the tip a little sharper but its nice having the base a little more rigid for the chin and the tip a little sharper for fine work.

I like to use the x pattern also because pulling a razor without using pressure is easier than pushing it down the hone without applying pressure.

An x pattern is a very efficient manner of applying the striations consistently at the correct angle without excessive manuevering when you flip the blade over. You could just angle the blade (in the inverse angle as the diagram above) but you'd be flipping the blade in a lot of excess motion compared to just using an x pattern. Its kind of anti-climatic if the x pattern isn't some magical solution but it could just be that its the most efficient overall travel path.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The base gets a little more pressure to compensate. I sometimes find the tip a little sharper but its nice having the base a little more rigid for the chin and the tip a little sharper for fine work.

Makes sense. Thanks.

The serrations and scallops of a serrated knife as far as I've ever seen are perpendicular to a knife's edge. Typically a serrated knife cuts in a parallel sawing motion so the serrations are perpendicular to the object being cut.

Barbers looking down on a customer from above would shave with the toe edge leading (I use the heel leading at an angle unless someone can explain to me how I would shave toe leading on my own face) at angle rather than a perpendicular sawing motion (like my knife example above).

So.........perpendicular serrations on a serrated knife cutting the surface of an object perpendicularly (is that a word?) when cutting straight down.

But.......angled striations on a razor from X pattern honing cutting the whiskers with the razor angled = serrations/striations cutting the whiskers....perpendicularly? (the angled striations and the angled blade cutting motion canceling each other out?).

Just a thought. And to that, why AREN'T knife serrations angled if the simple fact would be that angled striations (same as the scallops on a serrated knife really) cut better?

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chrisl

The serrations and scallops of a serrated knife as far as I've ever seen are perpendicular to a knife's edge. Typically a serrated knife cuts in a parallel sawing motion so the serrations are perpendicular to the object being cut.

Barbers looking down on a customer from above would shave with the toe edge leading (I use the heel leading at an angle unless someone can explain to me how I would shave toe leading on my own face) at angle rather than a perpendicular sawing motion (like my knife example above).

So.........perpendicular serrations on a serrated knife cutting the surface of an object perpendicularly (is that a word?) when cutting straight down.

But.......angled striations on a razor from X pattern honing cutting the whiskers with the razor angled = serrations/striations cutting the whiskers....perpendicularly? (the angled striations and the angled blade cutting motion canceling each other out?).

Just a thought. And to that, why AREN'T knife serrations angled if the simple fact would be that angled striations (same as the scallops on a serrated knife really) cut better?

Chris L

First: You can shave with the toe leading. It just take a little practice. It is worth the effort to learn to do too, it does give a smoother shave than either going straight down or with the heel leading. Don't ask me why or to explain how to do it, I really can't. All I can say is give it a shot.

Second: Serrated knives don't have a angle to them because they aren't knives at all but really saws for food. It is the teeth tearing through the surface that provide the cutting action for these cheap knives. Good knives are smooth and cut just like a razor does because they are sharpened similarly using an X-pattern on a hone.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

First: You can shave with the toe leading. It just take a little practice. It is worth the effort to learn to do too, it does give a smoother shave than either going straight down or with the heel leading. Don't ask me why or to explain how to do it, I really can't. All I can say is give it a shot.

Second: Serrated knives don't have a angle to them because they aren't knives at all but really saws for food. It is the teeth tearing through the surface that provide the cutting action for these cheap knives. Good knives are smooth and cut just like a razor does because they are sharpened similarly using an X-pattern on a hone.

That's a good point, Tim. I didn't think of a serrated knife in that way; when you put it that way, I agree, a serrated knife if more like a saw. I'll say though that a razors edge viewed under extreme magnification (electron) often shows a toothiness or serration which I visualize as the toothiness of such razor edges being really like micro-saws slicing through whiskers (maybe that's why a scythe motion toe or heel leading lends more to slicing/sawing whiskers rather than a head on chopping motion).

I will try to figure out the toe leading approach. To me it would seem very easy for a barber standing above, in my mind it seems awkward, but that's probably only because I haven't tried it and am used to heel leading.

Chris L

Toe leading, even slightly, really does give me a noticeably smoother shave. Once you get used to it, it's hard to go back.

Originally Posted by Chrisl

I visualize as the toothiness of such razor edges being really like micro-saws slicing through whiskers (maybe that's why a scythe motion toe or heel leading lends more to slicing/sawing whiskers rather than a head on chopping motion).
Chris L

I think that is a correct statement. If you look in the honing chapter of the 1961 barbering textbook, http://straightrazorpalace.com/compo...id,3/Itemid,3/
there's a drawing on the top of page 22 (page 2 of the PDF) that gives a good impression of the teeth being formed by the striations. If the striations are all parallel to eachother and angled at 45 degrees to the edge of the blade, I think the resulting micro-teeth will be equilateral triangles. So it won't matter if you scythe toe leading or heel leading. In everyday shaving practice, I use a mix of all possibilities, toe and heel leading and straight chopping as well, depending on where on my face I am shaving. When going straight down (or up) though, I try to slant the blade a bit, so it cuts guillotine style. That's usually much easier to do with the heel leading.

On a different note: a while back, when my honing skills were not exactly were they are now , all this mattered to me much more. Without scything motions my razors simply wouldn't give me a close shave. Then I had a breakthrough with honing, and now it all seems to matter less. I'm more focusing now on attacking the hairs from the right angle during my second pass (ATG), then trying to scythe-by-all-means. When it comes to improving closeness of the shave at my stubborn jugular areas, sharp razors and the correct angle of attack ATG have done more for me than the scything motion.