Thread: Why use an X-pattern on a wide hone?

Originally Posted by Sticky

Toe leading, even slightly, really does give me a noticeably smoother shave. Once you get used to it, it's hard to go back.

So, on your cheeks for example, with toe leading you're shaving toward your ears rather that the overall direction being toward the midline of your face as with heel leading? When I say heel leading, I really mean drawing the razor across at a downward angled slant, heel down toe up toward the midline of my face; reversing the process in my mind, angled slant toe leading would mean the heel would be close to my nose and I'd be angled toe downward with the angled pass on a cheek going towards my ear/jawline. Is that correct???

That's so funny how sometimes what are probably the simplest things are things that for the life of me I just can't visualize. Heh, such is one of my challenges in life, and a challenge for those around me!

Chris L

One thing that hasn't been brought up, which may help a few people, is that the angled striations on both sides of the edge supposedly work together to create a cutting edge. Its not so much that they are angled, its that both sides are angled and work together. You have to think a little 3Dimensionally to understand the theory.

You can sort of get a sense that the theory might be correct when you shave off a 4-6K hone directly. Big teeth, wicked cutting power, yet not quite as close a shave as you might desire.

I've had a few people lately working on convincing me that teeth have nothing to do with the cutting power of a straight razor, though, and they've made some really good arguments. I'm almost convinced, but not completely.

The other thing I find is that a lot of people sort of underestimate is the difficulty of honing without pressure, they look at the theory of moving the blade around and come up with all kinds of ideas about what would make sense, then fail consistently to achieve a sharp edge. You do not want to move your wrist at all when honing a razor. If you run the edge down the hone at an angle you can easily see the difficulty of not twisting your wrist as you go. And that makes it harder to keep consistent "pressure" (the lack there of actually), and angle during the stroke. In theory, it would be easier to walk down the street with one leg, instead of two, but in practice pulling the razor off the bottom of the hone is just an easier way to do it. But, given enough where-with-all it can be done, and angling the blade sometimes helps people get a more consistent edge when beginning, and before you attain really keen sharpness when perfect pressure strokes are less important. If I were forced to hone without an x pattern I would probably orient the stone at 12/6 and pull the blade toward me, because I know the importance of a pulling stroke when honing without pressure. Its not the blade manuevering on the stone that is the issue at all, its what it takes a human to produce the movement, without pressure, that is the challenge.

For me, I think the x pattern (or angling) is an easy way to hone the bevel into itself. You can get more thinness from the edge, I feel, if you cut the edge with the edge supporting itself as you go. I would need a picture to explain this but if you take any two spots on the edge that are next to each other. Spot one can get sharper because your using Spot two to support the edge of the edge against breaking. If you run the blade straight down the hone you break the edge into little crumbly sections because the grit breaks the edge up. It has no support from the direction your cutting into. The edge breaks in the vertical plan off the hone because its unsupported against the tearing action of the hone.

Nice explanation Alen!!! makes a lot of sense. As far as the teeth go, I think they do make a difference, the rule though is that the finer the better until they reach the point where they can't support themselves against the force of running into the hair.



Chris,

I'll try to explain a toe leading stroke a little better.

I start with the razor at my side burn line and the stroke will be straight down the back of my cheek just in front of the ear to the point of my mandible.

The razor is held in the same side hand and my other hand stretches the skin by reaching over the top of my head and pulling straight up with one finger in my side burn.

The point of the razor is towards my ear and the razors edge slants up to the heel with an angle of about ten degrees from the direction of travel. The toe leads the heel down my face. I used to do this exact same stroke with the heel leading the toe, that sounds like what you do, for some reason it doesn't work as well.

I do every stroke on my face with that same razor position whether I'm going with , or across the grain. When I go against the grain, it's usually fine cleanup and there I do whatever I have to to get the last stubborn hairs.

Boy thats a lot harder to explain than do

The scything motion, or "skew cut" also cuts with less effort because more of the blade is cutting the hair. (see attachment)

And for those that say toe leading gives a smoother shave, of which I am one, doesn't the "toe leading = better shave" phenomenon disprove the idea that serrations are the main component of the blade's cutting power since the majority of blades are honed with heel leading? A blade honed with the heel leading would have serration in that direction, and shaving with the toe leading would be at an angle that does not make the fullest use of those serrations, so they are, at the very least, not as important as the average sharpness of the cutting angle itself.

One might even argue that they are a negative component since on some scale they are creating tiny zones where the hair does not contact a cutting edge and is therefore pulled slightly before being severed. But that is an argument of diminishing returns, and is subjective to each persons preferences.

The bottom photo shows four electron microscope photos of razor edges. Top left is a craft razor and human hair, 20 microns across the photo. Top right is the same razor at 2 microns across the photo, the human hair is the width of the page at this magnification. Bottom left is a Wilkinson craft razor, 2 microns across. Bottom right is a chisel sharpened on a 6000 grit water stone, honed with Chromium-oxide 2 microns across. So that just goes to show you how small the changes are that we are talking about (in comparison to the size of a human hair), and what a noticeable effect they have on our faces.

edit: photos are from Leonard Lee's book "Complete Guide to Sharpening" , a Fine Woodworking book. The book deals mainly with cutting edges for woodworking, but the principles of severing fibers with sharpened edges are universal.

WOW, Russel, those are some nice pictures you showed us.

I have been thinkering about this some more today.
I wonder if there is any "sawing" action while cutting a hair with a razor. I guess we all know that a saw works by tearing fibers and cells out of the material it is cutting, making a kerf that, when it reaches the far end of the material, separates it into two parts. Cutting does the same, but without removing any material. The wedge of the cutting bevel forces the cells apart, and always separates two adjacent cells. If I have this right, one cell is never being cut in half. It are always two cells that are being separated.
On the premise that there is NO sawing action (something I can only assume, but not know for a fact), the striations have to be there for another function.
What Alan said makes a lot of sense too me, but I don't think it's the only principle at work here.
The outer layer of a hair is made out of microscopical overlapping cuticular scale-like cells. In order to cut a hair the razor must grab between two of those overlapping cells. I think the saw tooth pattern might play a key role when it comes to "catching" between two cuticular cells. That would explain why a scything motion cuts better. When the razor is dragged across there's a much bigger chance that a "teeth" grabs a cuticular scale and pulls it aside enough for the cutting wedge to find its way in.
Without a scything motion there's a greater chance that the razor skates over a few cuticular scales before it is able to force its way in. It would also explain why ATG shaves closer then WTG. ATG being against the direction of the scales as well. It would also mean that the scything motion is less important when going ATG. I think.
This is just a theory.
Luckily one doesn't have to understand the principles of the combustion engine on a subatomic level, in order to know how to drive a car... I would be one lousy driver

Bart.

Originally Posted by Chrisl

So, on your cheeks for example, with toe leading you're shaving toward your ears rather that the overall direction being toward the midline of your face as with heel leading?
...

First, grab this "1961 Barbering text - Shaving" so I can use it's illustrations. Figures 27, 28, and 29 use an angle of about 40 degrees toe-leading. I only use 10 to 20 degrees. When I first start the sideburn trim I use about 10 degrees and take a very short 1/4" or less stroke (so as to miss the ear), as in Figure 27 (cutting edge horizontal, stroke around 10-20 degrees, from vertical, toward the toe.). For almost all of the remaining shave, I angle the cutting edge with the toe 10-20 degrees horizontally lower than the heel, and making the stroke vertically (very close to Fig. 29).

Either way: the edge sees the actual cut the same way; we're just looking at identical geometry described in two different ways.

I don't use 40 degrees as in the barber text because I think it's too much and too risky for my skill level.

We all instinctively use a drawing/scything motion with a knife because we know it cuts better and cleaner that way. Why should the same idea, with a razor, surprise us?

I'm in the group that likes the x-stroke on cutting edges of all kinds. I just think I get better edges that way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

Originally Posted by Bart

WOW, Russel, those are some nice pictures you showed us.

I have been thinkering about this some more today.
I wonder if there is any "sawing" action while cutting a hair with a razor.

First, thanks! I'd recommend the book to anyone, look it up on amazon etc, you won't be disappointed. There is a wealth of information on natural vs. synthetic stones as well as metallurgy, and it is presented in a very understandable manner.

Second, the question of whether the teeth play a significant role is, to me at least, subjective to preference. If you look at the comparative sizes of the hair and the striations (teeth) in the electron micrographs above, you'll notice that the teeth are extremely small. You would be moving at a very risky angle if you were creating a kerf of any relevance. so, I would say that the teeth just grab the hair, allowing the keen edge to sever the fiber, and the amount of grab is a personal preference.

Originally Posted by Sticky

First, grab this "1961 Barbering text - Shaving" so I can use it's illustrations. Figures 27, 28, and 29 use an angle of about 40 degrees toe-leading. I only use 10 to 20 degrees. When I first start the sideburn trim I use about 10 degrees and take a very short 1/4" or less stroke (so as to miss the ear), as in Figure 27 (cutting edge horizontal, stroke around 10-20 degrees, from vertical, toward the toe.). For almost all of the remaining shave, I angle the cutting edge with the toe 10-20 degrees horizontally lower than the heel, and making the stroke vertically (very close to Fig. 29).

Either way: the edge sees the actual cut the same way; we're just looking at identical geometry described in two different ways.

I don't use 40 degrees as in the barber text because I think it's too much and too risky for my skill level.

We all instinctively use a drawing/scything motion with a knife because we know it cuts better and cleaner that way. Why should the same idea, with a razor, surprise us?

I'm in the group that likes the x-stroke on cutting edges of all kinds. I just think I get better edges that way. That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

Thanks Steven. I'll definitely be checking this out. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

First, thanks! I'd recommend the book to anyone, look it up on amazon etc, you won't be disappointed. There is a wealth of information on natural vs. synthetic stones as well as metallurgy, and it is presented in a very understandable manner.

Second, the question of whether the teeth play a significant role is, to me at least, subjective to preference. If you look at the comparative sizes of the hair and the striations (teeth) in the electron micrographs above, you'll notice that the teeth are extremely small. You would be moving at a very risky angle if you were creating a kerf of any relevance. so, I would say that the teeth just grab the hair, allowing the keen edge to sever the fiber, and the amount of grab is a personal preference.

I agree, great book; I recognized those pics right away. I was actually thinking of the toothy edges that would be commonly found on a razor's edge when I first saw the pic of the chisel honed on 6000 grit and finished with chrome ox in my copy.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chrisl

I was actually thinking of the toothy edges that would be commonly found on a razor's edge when I first saw the pic of the chisel honed on 6000 grit and finished with chrome ox in my copy.

Chris L

Might as well be a razor, the same principles are at work whether your honing razors, chisels, knife blades, gravers, etc.

I just wish someone with enough money and passion for straight razors would do tests like the ones they did for chisels and planes, tearing and slicing wood fibers while the whole experiment is recorded with highspeed cameras to catch every possible motion of the subject being severed, that'd be enlightening.

yeah... so maybe the toe/point leading shave should be marked as "advanced"

if i wasn't half asleep, the 3 or 4 surgical incisions while i experimented with the angle would have REALLY hurt.

on the plus side i learned that using the styptic pencil right away, instead of after the shave, may hurt a heck of a lot more, but is way more effective...