Thread: Do you tape the spine?

Here's the thing: A razor being sold in a "dishonest" manner has absolutely nothing to do with spine taping except on a case by case basis. Plenty of people have plenty of different reasons for taping the spine when they hone and all of those reasons are fine. If someone sells a razor saying it has no spine wear (and failing to mention that it has been honed plenty with tape), then it is a problem. But that is no reason to say that taping a spine is "bad".

As for telling a razors age from spine wear? That's kind of ridiculous. Plenty of razors have been found as NOS or new in box from 50-100+ years ago. Those razors don't have spine wear to tell its literal age. If what you mean is to tell the razors use, then it is still no exact science. People have different honing technique and habits. Some people use too much pressure, some use very little. That doesn't ever mean that the razor with less hone wear will shave better or has been honed less times.

Aesthetics have a LOT to do with people collecting and using straights nowadays and whatever system an individual wants to use to protect the integrity of the design of whatever razors he owns is perfectly ok. Would I tape a damascus spine? Yes. Would I need to? No. Simple as that. Hopefully when razors exchange hands, the seller will always be honest about what he knows about the razor. If sometimes we aren't fortunate enough to have enough information from a seller or even to have an honest seller at all, that is the gamble we take.

It would take a great deal of honing to wear a blade down to such a degree that it changes the geometry, A blade that has been honed is just that, I don't see how taping the spine is dishonest. When someone sends a razor to me to be honed, I want that blade to go back to them looking just as good as when it arrived.
I would be very upset if I sent out a nice clean razor to someone to be honed, and it came back to me looking significantly different.
90% of the razors I get to hone need a fresh bevel, some need extensive work to get that bevel (E-bay specials) often times the member has put in a lot of work to restore that blade, and I'm not going to send it back with honing marks on the spine. Most of the time I will see a blade once or twice in it's lifetime, and the owner will learn to maintain it from there, so the little work I do to it should not make it dishonest, nor should my thin layer of tape make it more difficult for them to hone it later. The tape wears down quickly, I actually use a micro thin PVC tape to hone with, and by the time I'm hitting my final hone the tape is almost transparent on the spine.
On most blades I use my pasted strops without the tape, and the blade geometry is not effected enough to make a pasted paddle strop ineffective on the edge.

But when you have a blade with gold on the spine, I've seen 1/4 micron paste eat through that gold... and I won't be the one doing that.

Your argument about it being a dishonest blade is too broad, what is a regrind then? Or if I hand sand a blade, and round off the hone marks in the process?
Is that a dishonest blade? No, it's a restored blade. There are members here with the skill to take an otherwise ruined blade, regrind and/or refinish it, re-etch it, and reapply the gold wash... I call that restoration, not falsification or fraud.

I personally will continue to tape my spines, as well as the spines of the razors entrusted to me to hone. I do not consider this to be dishonest, on the contrary, I am doing my best to preserve these razors. My work is not enough to distort the geometry, nor do I believe my honing would distort it over the next 20 or 30 years.
You can call it what ever you want.

I am going to respectfully keep my big mouth shut on this one.....

Voted with the curtain drawn!!!

(Plus I really can't add anything else that the other restorers haven't already said way better than I would have)

If I buy a brand new car or say for your sake a second hand from the 'used car' market.

Would I want to go out and scratch all the paintwork with a screwdriver?

How much do you think the car is worth if it has prestine paintwork compared to the same car with scrapes all over it?

Yes, it's another whacky analogy in line with the one said previous but I'm really struggling to agree with any argument against taping in same post.

I agree with Mike but add that I'll never hone a razor without tape.

If I buy a razor I'll check for spine wear and if it's too much, I will not buy. And if I buy a razor that has been pre-honed w/o tape, I will reset the bevel so that it is now a 'taped' razor. You can be sure if you buy a razor from me, it will be taped.

Everyone has their choice and opinions and I would never preach that one way is the 'correct' way.

Have fun!

The only time I hone without tape is if there is already spine wear, and it has scratches in it, then I will take the tape off after I'm done on my 8k, and do the remainder of my honing without, to polish the spine...
I figure if there's going to be a flat spot on the spine, it might as well have a mirror polish.

I very very rarely ever tape the spine when honing a razor. Doesn't mean I won't. I do tend to tape when removing a chip or if someone has sanded up an edge or really unevenly honed or ground when and I need to remove a lot of metal. The other situation that takes me to the tape is a Damascus razor as I try not to mess up the pattern. I hone well over a hundred razors every month and it is not often that I go to the tape.

You guys have fun.

Lynn

I think we should back down on the rhetoric a bit here. I can't imagine anyone taping the spine of a razor to be "dishonest." In fact, most of the dishonest guys selling bad razors on eBay would never even think of something as trivial as using tape on the spine. That's something that only a person knowledgeable about razors would do.

Furthermore, after having honed several hundred razors and making a few of my own, I don't find that hone wear makes much of a difference either way. On a typical full hollow razor, the blade is actually the same thickness most of the way up to the spine. Taking a full hollow 7/8 to a 5/8 wouldn't make it unusable. It would shave just fine.

There is a wide range of geometries present in vintage blades. Several members have done some calculations and found that the typical range is 17 to 19 degrees, but I just worked on a razor that was probably 15 degrees or less. A Feather blade has an angle that's upwards of 20 degrees, and they shave OK.

Spine wear says more about the skills of the previous owners than the razor's age or how well it will shave. A skillfully honed and stropped razor will probably last several lifetimes. If you did 10 touch-up laps every two or three months, even a lifetime of wear wouldn't be too bad. But you get a clod with a heavy hand on the hone and strop, and he'll wear out a blade in a few years. (Wouldn't it be less "true" if you honed out a big chip without taping the spine? You would put years of hone wear on the blade in 30 minutes.)

For the record, I sometimes use tape, depending on the razor. If it's really nice, I'll tape it. Most wedges get taped. I usually tell the buyer or owner when I do, just so they can keep that in mind while touching it up.

Josh

Originally Posted by English

The point about not being able to see the reduction in the width of the blade is that such a blade has lost its integrity. The springiness has gone. If you tape the spine its almost impossible to tell. Yes it will shave(like a butter knife) but not with the same feel of the original. Not as the manufacturer had originally intended.

This just simply is not true, I have shaved (frequently) with razors that are extremely worn from their previous lives. In fact one of my best shavers is a WB that started out life as one of the 9/8 meat choppers and is now below 8/8. This razor, using your definition, would constitute a "butter knife" and that is just not the case.

As for the springiness of a blade, that is a property of the steel more so than the shape or size of the cutting utensil. Think about it, the very edge of a razor is exactly the same whether it is a full hollow, full wedge, worn down hollow or otherwise. The cutting edge is a triangle. Period. It does not matter what kind of wear it has, the metal composition remains unchanged and the performance isn't altered by the amount of metal behind that triangle at the edge.

What I mean by illegal should not be taken literally. If a razor has had a taped spine, it is not what I would call an "honest" razor.

My final point refers to razors that have damascus blades or decorated spines. Well to be honest, if the only way to hone such a razor is with tape, I would suggest to you that there s a fundamental design fault.

If you want to consider every utensil as a utilitarian object, sure. But some people enjoy aesthetics as well.

I have had (and sold on this forum) a DOVO (Micarta) that has fancy etching all over the blade. It will take years of honing before the honing might upset the esthetic properties. Infact, the blade quality will deteriorate before the esthetics.

Again, the blade quality should not deteriorate with use.

Send me one of the razors you've used to formulate this opinion and I'll fix you right up, there really should be nothing wrong with the steel (unless it lost it's heat treat somehow).

What's the problem with the fine honing line on the spine of a damascus blade getting marginally wider over time.

I think the problem comes from people learning to hone. Overhoning and then selling off a "dishonest" razor that has been taped and then overhoned.

That is a separate problem. Are you suggesting that everyone who uses tape is such an amateur?

I'm not referring to forum members who tend to understand these things as well as I do, but there are a lot of dishonest razors out there. I think that taping will proliferate rather than reduce the problem. That's my only real concern. Otherwise I'm just being a bit mischievous to give you the argument for not taping.

Agreed, discussion is the only means of advancement, but you've got to be willing to see where your argument is faulted to be able to do said advancing.

I believe that "dishonest" was an exagerated only expresion used by "Englsh" to emphasise his oppinion.
I construe in some measure the need of taping the spine from a profesional honer who has cliends with different thinking, but does not means that this method preserves the initial manufacturers intentions.
I believe that if you hone with tape you must allways finish without tape.
Honing a razor entirely with tape and not inform the user for this, confuses him when he try to touch-up the razor or to hone it and he is in his first steps on honing.

I tape for one reason and one reason only, aesthetics.
When I first started honing my own razors, I was using an old Diamond king barber's hone... It's probably a 10k, smooth as glass, and it still doeas a great job.
But it left faint swirl marks. I didn't like this, so I would hone my razors, then take them into my shop, and buff out the swirl marks on a buffing wheel.
When I got some razors with blueing on the spine, a buffing wheel was no longer an option, and even my little 10k hone would rub the blueing right off.
I tried scotch tape, and found it to be acceptable, until I found SRP, and read about electrical tape... hey, why reinvent the wheel?
I haven't looked back.
It keeps my razors looking the way I want them to, and I have noticed no difference in shave quality.

When I'm looking at a razor to purchase, I would rather buy one that has had the spine taped, if the seller is accurate in his description, then he isn't going to sell it as new, it is a nice used razor.

I think it all comes down to personal preference, that's all.