Thread: Do you tape the spine?

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

When I purchase a razor, I look at the spine and the width of the honing bevel on the spine to determine how often and how well the razor has been honed in the past. An uneven or irregular width tells me there may be problems and to be cautious and the width of the bevel tells me how well used the razor is. That's what people who know a little about second hand razors do.

If a razor has been taped throughout it's life, this will not help , because the spine honing bevel has been protected and has no story to tell. I can not tell how much metal has been removed from the edge. I also can not easily tell what the original size of the blade might have been.

For the sake of argument, lets say I like the feel of a 5/8" full hollow ground razor.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

The width of the spine will say you more about the size that must be the blade.

Originally Posted by English

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

Oops! Well, maybe you're not a nutter but you sounded like one when you said "In my opininion it should be illegal if you ever intend to trade the razor." I know you were just using a exaggeration to generate discussion though, which I think it did

And if the pro's know what they're doing and wouldn't deliberately be dishonest, then taping the spine of a razor is not like clocking the mileage meter on a car.

I will admit I thought more about the tape after reading your post than I had previously. I tape one razor and don't tape the other, and will probably leave it that way since I am still trying to level and even out the pressure I use when I hone.

Originally Posted by English

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

I said that your argument was faulted because you kept saying that a razor with hone wear "shaves like a butter knife." This statement implies that the razor doesn't shave at all and that is just not true.

If you meant to say that the razor no longer shaves exactly like it used to because of the altered geometry, then I agree, the edge will be slightly stiffer from the decreased moment arm. But I'll ask you this, how do you know what it is supposed to feel like? I mean, how can you discern what every 5/8 is supposed to feel like, since they are all slightly different?

It's a good principle, to let a razor age as it should and most of the time I hone without tape. But when you make such a bold statement that applies (in part) to other forum members, you have to expect some friction since there are valid reasons for doing it.

Originally Posted by English

I do not see how my argument has faulted at all. I'm not talking about the "Forum". I'm talking about the big wide world of e bay and flee markets and antique stores etc.

I also have not said that the guys who refurbish or hone razors in a professional capacity don't know what they are doing or that they would falsify or deliberately defraud or be dishonest. I have neither written, said, implied. or believe that. Incidentally, I'm not a nutter, ridiculous or whacky and I'm not trying to preach.

When I purchase a razor, I look at the spine and the width of the honing bevel on the spine to determine how often and how well the razor has been honed in the past. An uneven or irregular width tells me there may be problems and to be cautious and the width of the bevel tells me how well used the razor is. That's what people who know a little about second hand razors do.

If a razor has been taped throughout it's life, this will not help , because the spine honing bevel has been protected and has no story to tell. I can not tell how much metal has been removed from the edge. I also can not easily tell what the original size of the blade might have been.

For the sake of argument, lets say I like the feel of a 5/8" full hollow ground razor.

If I see a razor for sale that is described as 5/8" that has a spine honing bevel of more than 2mm, I know that that blade started its life as probably a 6/8" razor. I don't want a honed down 6/8" razor so I won't buy it.

If that razor's spine had been taped, the spine bevel would be less than 1mm and you could easily think that the razor was a little used 5/8"razor.

When you shave with it however, it will feel stiffer than a normal 5/8" razor because 1/8" of the very flexible part of the blade has been honed away.

That's the only point I am making.

It’s a known standard for all razors… (well most):
3/8th and 4/8th razors have 2/16th inch spine width
5/8th and 6/8th razors have 3/16th inch spine width
7/8th and larger have ¼ inch and larger spine width

This is so the edge angle is between 15 to 19 degrees; razors shave well at these angles.
If a taped 6/8th razor was honed down to 5/8th it would shave well because the angle is still within the standard tolerance for the hardened steel.

Any razor out of these measurements would look “odd” and quickly recognized (tape or no tape)… it would take a long time or reckless honing to get a razor out of tolerance, and chances are they wont bother to tape the spine.

Originally Posted by smythe

It’s a known standard for all razors… (well most):
3/8th and 4/8th razors have 2/16th inch spine width
5/8th and 6/8th razors have 3/16th inch spine width
7/8th and larger have ¼ inch and larger spine width

This is so the edge angle is between 15 to 19 degrees; razors shave well at these angles.
If a taped 6/8th razor was honed down to 5/8th it would shave well because the angle is still within the standard tolerance for the hardened steel.
Any razor out of these measurements would look “odd” and quickly recognized (tape or no tape)… it would take a long time or reckless honing to get a razor out of tolerance, and chances are they wont bother to tape the spine.

I dont know where you find the masurements you write as "known stardard for all razors" but are absolutely incorect.

Each manufacturers size has different spine width
A small number of razors has spine width lower than the "standard manufacturers width" but not larger and absolutely not the width of the higher size.
And it is alot of difference in feeling and not only, between 15 and 19 degrees.

Just calculated:
All my razors have an angle from 14 degrees minimum( bengall, Dorko for barber use) to 16 degrees maximum (dorko stainless, Henkels friodur- new, henckels made-) with the majority of others between 15 and 16

Lets go with an example:

A razor with 6mm spine width and 21 mm blade ( Dorko Stainless) has 16 deg angle.

If you hone it without tape 3mm then you have 19 deg angle

To remain 16 deg you need a spine of 5,6 mm , a spine wear of 0,2 mm in width on each side.

If you hone with tape another 1mm you have 20 deg angle.

The spine of the razors is so designed to obtain in aproximation the wear needed to maintain the angle.
Spine wear must be proportional with the width of the bevel
On new razors the spine wear surface is minimal because the bevel width is minimal.
So if after time the bevel width (the surface who touch the hone) is larger and you need more honing and the spine wear surface becomes larger to compensate this.
This is easier to observe on wedges

Edit: All razors measured are new or new old stock honed once lightly

I didn't know there were standard dimensions either but it makes sense, the spine width has to be a function of the length.

Originally Posted by Yannis

I dont know where you find the masurements you write as "known stardard for all razors" but are absolutely incorect.

Each manufacturers size has different spine width
A small number of razors has spine width lower than the "standard manufacturers width" but not larger and absolutely not the width of the higher size.
And it is alot of difference in feeling and not only, between 15 and 19 degrees.

Yanis,
I will cannot argue this point… go measure a few razors and prove it to your self.

Each manufacture may have different spine width but whatever it is they maintained an angle between 15 and 19 degrees… this is a mater of physics… a compromise between steel hardness and thinness to achieve a keen cutting edge.

When properly honed it will shave well… and if your skin is sensitive enough you my feel the difference between the angles depending on the composition of the steel and how it was hardened and honed.

Another calculation:

I have a very very used full hollow ground razor I bought on ebay for the scales only.
It have severe spine wear and the size of the blade was shorter than expected and with large bevel width.
Until now my impression was that this razor was unusable.

I measured it

The spine width just on point before the wear of the spine was 5mm
From the size of the tang I know that this razor was 5/8.
This means that the angle was 16 degrees.

The width of the spine with wear is 4,3mm and the size of the blade 15.5mm
- 15,8 degrees angle calculated
The same angle ! A very serviseable razor.
Only needs more time on the hone because it has a wide bevel.


18,3 degrees if this razor was honed with tape.
Edit: A dead or half dead razor