Thread: Sharpening knives to justify DMTC

Originally Posted by chem_fun

What would be a setup to last me nearly forever to both keep my straights sharpened, lap my stones (if needed), keep my cooking knives sharp and maybe fix up a few e-bay blades. (either old rusty blades or a NIB Double Arow or Wapi)

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

Knives need different grit levels and techniques than straight razors do and the stones used for knives really need to be lapped before being used for razors, so you either need two sets of stones or a DMTC (or a lot of patience and sandpaper).

On top of that, the fewer hones that you buy, the more experience your going to need so that you can know that the job was done correctly.

My recommendation is:

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

There are other routes but that one, in my opinion, has the least fuss, greatest outcome, and longest service life of all of the options commonly used.

(Wet sandpaper on a glass pane can be substituted for #1 and #2, but it requires more prep to use and makes more of a mess. A 4k hone would be nice to have in between #2 and #3 but it is not a necessity if you don't mind taking a little extra time. A pasted strop could be used after #3 if you really want the extra polish on your blade.)

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

Knives need different grit levels and techniques than straight razors do and the stones used for knives really need to be lapped before being used for razors, so you either need two sets of stones or a DMTC (or a lot of patience and sandpaper).

On top of that, the fewer hones that you buy, the more experience your going to need so that you can know that the job was done correctly.

My recommendation is:

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

There are other routes but that one, in my opinion, has the least fuss, greatest outcome, and longest service life of all of the options commonly used.

Russel's recommendation is in fact what I've ended up with, with the recent addition of the Shapton GS16K after a combination of a groupbuy and HAD, the coticule gives me very nice shaving edges and I havn't gotten to the conclution that the GS is nesscecery.

Originally Posted by bjorn

Russel's recommendation is in fact what I've ended up with, with the recent addition of the Shapton GS16K after a combination of a groupbuy and HAD, the coticule gives me very nice shaving edges and I havn't gotten to the conclution that the GS is nesscecery.

Ok, so with a kenrup wapi that I got TODAY. Did about half my face, will post a first shave thread once I've worked up to the entire face.

Since it's new, and till I get an e-bay non-shave ready razor (like a DA), I don't really need the D8C?

Did you and Russel really mean the D8E or did you mean the D8EE?

Haven't checked the prices on the coticule yet, what about a 12k for finishing, with some .5 diamond paste or CrO that I got with my kenrup strop?

I'll add to this that I don't really have thick whiskers at all. And FWIW, my wusthof knives still have a descent edge after only about 2 - 3 years of use. (though some get used daily, and I put them on the chef's choice 120, and now regret that)

Originally Posted by chem_fun

Ok, so with a kenrup wapi that I got TODAY. Did about half my face, will post a first shave thread once I've worked up to the entire face.

Since it's new, and till I get an e-bay non-shave ready razor (like a DA), I don't really need the D8C?

Did you and Russel really mean the D8E or did you mean the D8EE?

Haven't checked the prices on the coticule yet, what about a 12k for finishing, with some .5 diamond paste or CrO that I got with my kenrup strop?

I'll add to this that I don't really have thick whiskers at all. And FWIW, my wusthof knives still have a descent edge after only about 2 - 3 years of use. (though some get used daily, and I put them on the chef's choice 120, and now regret that)

You don't really need the DMT C (325) or DMT E (1200) at all, sandpaper will suffice for lapping stones and setting bevels, but they sure make things a lot easier.

The 1200 grit DMT E (not EE) is good for removing scratches from the DMT C and the Coticule is powerful enough to remove the DMT E scratches.

A 6x2 coticule is a great stone, one of my favorite sizes in fact: </TITLE><html> <head> <title>The Perfect Edge, the 6x1.5 is just as usable and a good deal cheaper if that's a factor. The reason the Coticule gets my recommendation over the Chinese 12k is that the Coticule cuts very fast and polishes really well. The chinese 12k will put a finer edge on the blade, but it will take a long long time to remove even 4000 grit scratches nevermind 1200 grit diamond scratches.

The CrO will make a great finishing touch after the Coticule, more than a few very respected gentleman around here use that combination and absolutely love it.

Dylan, , yes a combo coticule/blue stone would be awesome, I just wanted to keep it minimal, good thinking!

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

This is a very hard set of requirements to accommodate.

When I read these words I thought, No it isn't, Russel! All you need is a –

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

1) DMTC for doing major reworking of all edged tools and lapping stones/hones.

2) DMTE for refining cutting edges that have correctly "set" bevel. DMTs can be gotten from craftsmanstudio.com.

3) Belgian Coticule (6x2 from theperfectedge.com) for finishing your razors.

Exactly.

I totally agree that this is the best route (OK, marginally better would be a 6x2 combo). If you're not prone to the siren call of HAD, this is truly all the hones you'll ever need for shaving and cooking (I can't speak to carpentry or other tools).

There are any number of other routes; the reason this one's great is that the hone you're using on both razors and knives (the DMTE) never needs to be lapped. Taking a butcher knife to a normal water stone can leave the surface less than optimal for razors, and then you end up lapping every time you hone. Total drag.

Where does the D8EE fit into this mix? Is it similar to the Belgian Coticule, since they're both rated at 8k grit?

Would I use the Belgian Coticule with a slurry or use it wet? (or dry for that matter?)

Holy smokes, the Belgian Coticule's are expensive. What size would be "recommended"

The D8EE is a great 8k hone, it will remove the 1200 grit scratches very quickly (like 10 strokes) while the Coticule will need more but give superior results.

If you generate a slurry on the coticule, it performs similar to a 6k stone. When used wet, it is more like 8k to 10k and leaves a smooth as well as sharp edge.

6"x1.5" is a good choice, wider than 2" is unnecessary, longer is just a luxury.

But these are just my recommendations, there are always other options, try to wait it out before jumping into any one of these hones so that you can read up on multiple experiences with each.

So, do you think to do both my wusthof knives and my straight razors that I'd make a shave ready blade with a DMT D8C and D8EE and a .5 micron diamond paste strop? Or, then add a CrO strop as well? Or do I really need the DMT D8E too?

I'm not planning on jumping into this, as I just got my first Kenrup Wapi today and shaved half my face. Didn't cut myself, but immediately felt a great respect for the blade, and I liked the shave I recieved. It was at least as good as my Gillette Fusion.

I'd like to keep the blade I have sharp, and probably get a Double Arow off e-bay for $20, and see if I can make it sharp. I've got quite a few knives to prep the DMT's

Should I add a 12k or 16k stone to the procedure?

I'll give it a shot, right now...

(5 minutes actual hone time, 3 or 4 minutes to assess the edge, a few more to write it up)

...and the results were surprisingly good!

10 or so passes on the DMT 8C got the bevel set correctly, 20 passes on the D8EE erased the 325 grit scratches, 5 more with a very light touch left the edge as good as it was gonna be, then the pasted strop made the edge nice and smooth.

Not as smooth as I've gotten from other methods, and I don't necessarily want to recommend this as the best option, but it seems that it can, indeed, be made to work.

A paddle strop with 1micron diamond and CrO would probably be better or more time stropping on the CrO (more time than I will spend on it because I have a bias against pastes).

edit again: this may work for razors but some knives just won't hold an 8k edge. Great, now I have to try knives on this setup...

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

I'll give it a shot, right now...

You have those stones, and you're going to try and hone a blade?