Thread: My frustration has caused me to re-think my hones

Tonight I honed my 7/8 carbon Wacker. I really thought it could use a touch up so I took out my Norton 4/8K and did 25 laps on the 4K, then a TNT. About halfway up the razor was doing just fine but near the heal it didn't pass the test. So back to the 4K for 25 more. Still no change though. After about 50 more and I'm starting to doubt myself. So I go to my yellow coticule and do 15 laps and now 3/4th's of the blade passes the TPT. After some passes on the Green stuff and 60 laps on my strop it passes the HHT. I haven't shaved with it yet but I have concerns:

1. Why can't I ever get the TPT to be consistent all the way up the edge?

2. I really like the feedback the yellow coticule gives me, it feels like it's cutting more than even the 4K side of the Norton.

So I have to wonder, what's a better alternative to the Norton. Are these Shapton's really that much better.
Maybe I don't like my Norton because I feel like it can't get me the results others get. Maybe it doesn't like me?

I mean at this point the frustration I'm feeling is making me want to give up on honing.

Any advice is welcome. I know it's a practice thing, but are there better tools to practice with that would quell this frustration?

I'm sure you'll get many different suggestions, but this is mine:

• DMT-8E (1200 grit) for establishing the bevel
• Yellow coticule with slurry
• Yellow coticule with water only
• 3M Abrasive Film 1 micron
• .5 micron Cromium Oxide
• Strop

It sounds to me like you need to develop the rolling stroke that we use for bellied or smiling blades. When your edge passes the tests in one section but not the other, it simply means that you need to work a bit more on the parts that are not passing the test. You CAN continue with straight/flat strokes until the entire edge passes the test but if the problem is that there's a smile in the blade, you're going to be at the hones for a looooong time straightening that smile out. When honing one of my smilers, I simply put a bit of roll into my stroke. I lead with the heel and as I pull the heel off the hone as in the x pattern, I simply lift the tang ever so slightly, transferring the pressure towards the middle and ultimately the tip of the blade.If the heel isn't coming along, I'll work just the heel portion (ditto for the tip etc.), I simply do the same but only work from heel to middle on the majority of strokes and every so often I'll put in a couple of full length strokes to blend the sections together. Once all the sections pass whatever test I use, I do a very small number of complete strokes to even things out and then go on to polishing etc.

I was lucky to have a razor with an obvious belly when I first taught myself to hone.... I wouldn't leave it alone until I could shave with it and I quickly developed the knack for honing it... since then it sort of just comes naturally as I work an edge even if it isn't an obvious smiler. Frankly, I have more problems with the ones that have perfectly straight edges...

The hones are not really the problem unless you really really want to straighten the edges of your razors which would be a shame because I think smilers shave just that little bit better/nicer than the perfectly straight edged ones.

To answer your hone question, yes the Shaptons really are that much better, very fast cutters.... This is good and bad, good because they reduce the time you need to spend honing but bad if your technique isn't good... you'll just hone your way into deeper waters that much faster!

I personally like the Belgians, both the blue and yellow with the blue (yes... I know it's a slow cutter) having a very nice feedback that lets you develop your skill without honing away years of shaving off your blade... Then again, you have to have the patience to put all those practice strokes in when using it. These days I'll reach for the Shaptons if I need to start with a dull as a butter knife ebay find but if it's just one of my razors that needs to be tweaked and there's no nicks or anything, I'll reach for the blue and yellow.... they just feel so good.



Hope this helps

Christian

Although new to the site, I have spent quite a bit of time really learning to hone a razor. I don't own a coticule anymore,nor do I use any abrasive pastes. I currently use the Norton 4000 waterstone, an 8000 and a 16000 Shapton Glass Waterstones, and various leather and canvas stropes with NO paste whatsoever.

I've always been concerned about overhoning-hence the absolute importance of using a "pyramid" type of grit progression as discussed by Lynn on his Shaving DVD. Using his method,progressing from the coarse to the finer grits I have refined the technique and no longer find it frustrating or hit and miss getting a keen edge.

You ask if the shapton's are "that good"?IMO,yes-EMPHATICALLY. Having used natural waterstones in the past-with good results I might add, I really didn't think I actually needed to get the Shapton's. The short time I've had them, I am more than impressed with the consistency and the feel the stone gives you.This combined with a simple pyramid has allowed me to get edges that pass the HHT everytime. This was something I could not ALWAYS get with the natural stones.

That being said,I think it is very important to progressively MONITOR your progress visually using some type of magnification. I only use a 10X watchmakers loupe with a head band so I can keep my hands free.By watching the edge change shape, I am able to make certain ALL the blade is in contact with the hone.And by really concentrating on a SLOW uniform X-stroke,LOOKING-THEN proceeding I don't allow the edge to become one sided or incomplete.Plus, the biggest improvement in my technique is the feel of the Shapton Glass waterstone. Even a 16000 it is easy to feel the CUTTING-it doesn't have the same feel as using a coticule or other natural FINE waterstone with a Nagura stone. It doesn't feel like your polishing-if that makes sense.

Although,there are many honemeisters here that use other methods, I kept it simple.Once I completed the pyramid fo say 3 strokes 4000/3/8000 then 1 40000 3 8000/ 1 4000 5 8000 I would then proceed to using the 8000 and 16000 grit stones in a similar pattern. All the while watching the edge. By going back the coarse grit and then back finer really limited getting into a situation of overhoning the edge.After the stones I went directly to plain leather-skipping the canvas and stropped deliberately and carefully. Its not a race. Just concentrate. It really is a "ZEN LIKE" approach. Although some may call that laughable-it works for me.

Its just my opinion with the method I have outlined- I have NEVER exceeded more than 5 strokes(one stroke= 1 pass on each side of the razor) Even using a VERY fine glasslike hone 25-50 strokes seems like an awful lot.Stropping on the otherhand is usually in the area of 50-75 strokes-all the while monitoring my progress.

I learned sharpening and honing on knives first,long before I ever tryed razors.The biggest difference is how easy it is to overhone. I don't know if the "Pro's" here agreee with me and I would gladly defer to their experience. But this method has really allowed me to enjoy my razors with NO frustration-and if you get frustrated,your technique suffers and worst of all you can't shave with the damned thing.

Edit: I'd like to add one more thought. You had mentioned how you liked the yellow coticule and the feedback it gave you. I'd like to add tha I had always felt that the 8000 Norton lacked feedback. It felt like the blade was "skating" across. I even bought another 4000/8000 combo stone thinking that I might find an improvement. I also tryed lapping the 8000-still no feel. The biggest improvement to my system was getting the 8000 Shapton glass waterstone-buying the 16000 was a NO-brainer.These stones are AGGRESSIVE though and I can easily see how you could literally ruin a razor by overhoning-even the 16000 removes a surprising amount of material.-I leave polishing the edge to the strop.

My beard is VERY coarse and I shave everyday.All I can say is adding these stones to my arsenal I know know why some blades are called "singing" razors.

My set-up:

Shapton 1.5K, Shapton 5K, Y/G Escher and Nakayama.

For razors that are consistently hard to hone in heel or toe area I use a narrow vintage Thuringen hone.

I agree with Christian. This is evident by the fact that the edge seemed to improve as you moved to a narrower hone (coticule) and then to the strops that can conform better to the edge. Either the blade has a smile or a slight warp. The rolling stroke can compensate for these.


Lt.Arclight--
A thorough post there. I for one appreciated reading it; thanks for posting.

I agree with Kaptain_Zero that you need to develop your stroke. The rolling X stroke is something all of us can benefit from for dealing with a blade with a smile or a slight warp. I believe that the video's bu Heavy_duty demonstrates the rolling X stroke and I know that Russel Baldridge also has a post with pics. Check them out and practice with an old razor.

When I have coached a new guy on honing the one thing almost all have done is go to fast on the hone. The stroke should be about 1 full second in each direction on the hone. If you go faster then it is difficult to keep the edge flat on the hone. So...slow down your honing stroke. Less is better.

The other main cue that I use is to watch the water flow in front of the edge. That tells me where the contact is being made. When using an X stroke or a rolling X stroke then the puddle of water in front of the edge should move from the heel to the toe.

Lt.acrlight's post is very good. His focus on paying attention to the changes is right on the money.

The hones that you have are more than adequate to hone your razor's. Purchasing additional hones will not be a cure all. Learn to modify your honing stroke, slow down, and pay attention to the changes that are occuring.

BTW, the number 1 reason that people stop using staright razors is the difficulty of honing. That why we try to help others so much.

BTW2, a Wacker razor is not the easiest thing to hone. Any 7/8 with a hard temper is going to be a bit of a challange.

Just my $.02,

Navaja, kaptain_zero, Lt.Arclight, Kees, xChris, randydance062449. Thanks to all you guys, I'm going to copy each one of your replies and go back to them repeatedly until I can do this right. Randy, I'm glad to know my 7/8 may be a harder one to hone. I was thinking it was all me. Funny what you said about the number one reason for quitting because I have entertained these thoughts. XChris, good to know someone else thinks the same thing, though I hate the idea of having spent so much money on a warped blade. kaptain zero I have to agree with you about the Belgiums, and I am thinking of getting the blue for the simple reason that if the yellow gives me good feedback then the blue must do the same. Navaja, I've been eyeing those films for a while too, you must like your results.

Thanks guys for taking all the time it took to answer my concerns,
Randy

Randy,

I have a Wacker "Feinster Hohlschliff" that was very hard as well. It took me a while to hone it up, but it maintains that edge very well. So, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I think part of the problem with warping comes from the fact that the blanks are being ground so thin before heat treating & tempering. The cost of the razors would be even worse (from a consumer's point of view) if the rejection rate went up, or post-HT grinding had to take off more material than it does now.

Good luck on getting your razor honed up. Again, I think you'll find it rewarding when you can say you did it, and on this difficult blade.

personally, I think the word touchup and the 4K need to stay as far apart as possible. The 4K is really to redo a bevel or correct bevel problems unless you've let your razor go way to far out in which case you need more than a touchup. When I do a touchup on any of my razors I'll use the coticule or vintage escher and they work every time. I would never use a lower grit than those two are for a touchup.