Thread: Super Smooth

I can already achieve a decent edge on my blade. But what I want to talk about here is getting a super smooth edge on my blade.

Here's my set up. A Japanese 1k/6k combo, a Norton 4k/8k combo, a 6k Belgian blue, and a 12k Chinese stone. I set my bevel and then do a modified pyramid. I also use 3 pieces of electrical tape due to hone wear. It's an antique store find.

And like I said, I can get a decent edge on my blade, i.e., I can shave with only slight irritation afterwords. But on my first WTG pass, I'm getting some pulling. And everyone knows that's none too comfortable.

If anyone has any tips on getting a super smooth edge I'd really like your help.

I hear a few passes on newspaper will smooth things out. I tried it last night and I have to say that I got a smooth shave, but I also tried a new razor, so I don't know if the paper made a difference or not. This was after a touch up on my shapton pro 12k, too.

That reminds me. I forgot to mention that my strop is chromium oxided(the solid version) on a piece of Balsa wood.

If you are getting a "pulling" sensation on your first WTG pass-that razor is NOT sharp enough. Really-at that point, if you were to attempt ANY ATG pass you'd be in some serious razor burn.

Just remember, set the bevel first-it will or at least SHOULD be VERY sharp and then refine the edge by going to finer hones.

Really try to master the sharpness tests. CrOX on a blasa strop can be a big help-but don't rely on it to get the razor SHARP. Good Luck.

I think a piece of leather would make the biggest difference in your setup.

I forgot to mention it, but I also have a leather strop. Pasted with the same chromium oxide.

I'll work on my bevel, that sounds like the most logical reason. Now, do you think my tape is a hindrance? I've also been wondering, how much pressure does everyone use? I've heard that you're supposed to use very little, but it doesn't seem like enough.

3 thicknesses of electrical tape is an awful lot of tape. Either you have massive hone wear or that's your problem.

Originally Posted by biggbadwulff

If anyone has any tips on getting a super smooth edge I'd really like your help.

I think that your edge lacks sharpness, before smoothness.

With the hones you got, you have access to doing many different variations for getting a good edge, but that doesn't necessarily mean that using all those hones in one progression automatically leads to shaving nirvana. You haven't told us much about your exact method, so I can't really comment on that, but I can advice you to keep things simple while still fairly new to honing.

I guess it's safe to suppose your razor's edge is free of nicks, so you can leave that 1K hone out.

From reading your post, I'm not so sure that your bevel is up to par. If you're using a pasted strop to finalize your honing, than you're convexing your edge to a degree. Nothing wrong with that, but if it doesn't result in the edge you're after, you need to go back to the hones. Because of the convexed edge, it always requires some bevel correction on a hone that can tackle such a job. The Norton 4K has an outstanding reputation for that.

I'm personally not a big fan of using multiple layers of tape during the entire honing process. If you want to protect the spine from wear, one layer of tape will suffice with a minimal alteration of edge geometrics. (If you take up my advice on this, and alter the amount of tape, it's going to take more bevel work on the 4K before the new honing angle is set at the complete width of the bevel.)

An important notice.
Because of the pasted strops, your razor has a edge that shaves. It clearly doesn't shave to your liking, otherwise you wouldn't have posted here. But it shaves. If you get back to the hones, at first the very edge will not be affected by your honing, due to the convex shape of the bevel. Hence, with all possible tests, such as the TNT, the TPT and the HHT, you are still probing the results of the pasted strop, instead of testing the progress of your efforts on, let's say the Norton 4K. The best solution, and I really urge you to trust me on this, is removing the very edge of that razor by runing it lightly over the side of the Chinese 12K, as if you were trying to cut into that hone. At the same time this also removes all possible weaknesses in the very edge that could be present from multiple pasted stropping attempts. You'll still have a very sharp edge, barely under the shave arm hair level now. The advantage is that you can work on the 4K till it shaves arm hairs again, a completely positive sign that your bevel is perfectly up to par, which is a strong condition for any further progress.

Setting bevel on the 4K.
Hone with the X-stroke. Some pressure is ok at this point. Perform the TNT every 10 back and forth strokes. As soon as the TNT shows it's typical sticky feeling along the entire edge, you should start doing lowest pressure strokes, testing how well you can shave arm hair. As soon as that maxes out at a level where you can shave armhair very well, you can be sure that you have a good bevel.


Refining the edge.
You can do pyramids between the 4K and 8K side of the Norton. I can't tell you that much about that, since I don't do them.

Another option is going to the Belgian Blue with a light slurry and do about 70 laps on that one, keeping pressure low and making sure the slurry doesn't dry out. It's better to slowly dilute the slurry as you go along than to allow it becoming too thick.

Other people do about 10 laps on the Norton 8K and leave it right there.

My personal favorite of those 3 options is the one with the Belgian Blue, but that's just me. Either way: DON'T do them all three.


Polishing the edge.
About 70 lightest laps on the Chinese 12K, water only.

After this you can remove the tape (if you chose to use it) and strop 60 laps on clean leather.
This should really give you an edge that doesn't pull WTG and only very, very lightly pulls ATG (more a hint of slight resistance, actually) If you can confidently get there, a pasted strop can really offer something extra. If not, all a pasted strop does, is turning a sub par edge into a mediocre edge that won't last long.

The amounts of laps are merely indicative. I never count them.

Hope this helps,
Bart.

Your post is very helpful. It gives me a lot to try and to think about.

Here's my method though. My blade is free of nicks. I set the bevel with the 1k. I don't count the number of passes because I know it varies on the condition of the blade. Then for the 4k/8k I just use a simple 5/5 pyramid. I modify it by then doing a 5/5 pyramid with the Belgian blue and the 8k. And then I do the 12k until I get out the previous scratch marks. Then it's about 50 laps on the pasted Balsa and 40-50 on the pasted leather.

I think I'll remove my edge with the 12k, set my bevel with the 4k and try the method with the Belgian blue you described. It sounds simple. I've use the pyramid mostly because you can duplicate your stroke count.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that a Belgian blue with a slurry is comparable to an 8k stone? So slowly diluting it would take it from an 8k to a 6k?

Also, I'm going to cut back to one piece of tape. If the 3 pieces sound extreme to everyone, it probably is. I'm probably treating it like it'll break if I look at it wrong.

While I just skimmed through the other posts it sounds like you've got plenty of good advice already. As for the hones and grit issue such as "is a Belgian Blue x grit this way and y grit that way" and the like, it bears repeating... you cannot compare grits between different types of hones directly and in particular with natural hones such as the Belgian Blue, Coticule and the like. The Belgian Blue sort of, based on experienced users who have many hones of various types, feels to cut like a very slow 4K to 8K hone when used with a slurry (but it's not ACTUALLY that size grit!). I would suggest that you use either the blue OR the Norton 4K/8K but not both. Neither of the two will radically improve anything over the other hone, it's much more of a "this hone feels and works better for ME than the other hone" situation. Based on what you have, I would suggest using only the Norton and the 12k for a finish. Alternately, use the Blue with heavy slurry, thinning it down towards the end with more water... you might even try it with just water, no slurry at the end but my experience would suggest that the blue will cut so slowly at this point that you would be better off just switching to the 12k for the finish. I generally go from a blue to yellow coticule to chromium pasted bench strop if I'm using my naturals. Otherwise I use my Shaptons up to 16K + Chromium bench strop.

A word on the pyramids.... I do not use them.... period. They are a solution to a problem I don't have which is over honing to the point where you get a wire edge. The pyramid scheme seems most popular with the Norton 4K/8K and works for some, others prefer to not use it unless a wire edge rears it's ugly head. I think pyramids used when not needed simply gets in the way of obtaining a sharp edge. The purpose of the 4K is to get the two bevels to meet in a sharp edge, once the edge is fully formed (we often say the bevels are set), you move to the next finer grit to remove the coarser scratches made by the 4K hone but nothing more. Once the 4K scratches are gone, you move to your 12K hone and remove the scratches left from the 8K hone. Now, if you over do it with let's say the 8K by not only removing the 4K scratches but keep going for a while longer, you'll develop a wire edge.... this could also happen at the coarser grits, I'm just going with the Norton 4k/8k for this discussion. If you get the wire edge beginning to form, one way to remove it is to drop back to the next coarser stone for a few laps and then move back to the finer aka the pyramid. Others will back hone the blade for a few strokes, moving the blade across the hone with the spine leading just like when you strop, so that the wire edge tears off and then go back to building that sharp edge. Once you remove the wire edge, the remaining edge is NOT sharp but rough and slightly dull. The pyramid may be a bit kinder way of removing the wire edge and help stop a wire edge from developing again but like I said, if you don't have a wire edge, the pyramid won't necessarily be of help to you.

And lastly, if the edge is not sharp when you are on the 4K hone, there is no point in going to a finer hone, you MUST develop your edge at the 2k/4k grit level, the higher grits are only useful for removing the coarser scratches left from the 4K, not for actual sharpening... they are simply refining the 4K edge (aka honing, not *sharpening*). Once sharp, the progression through the finer grits goes quite quickly. Once an edge is fully formed and refined, it doesn't take that much to keep it in excellent condition barring bad stropping... I maintain my favorite razors with a light honing on either a Coticule or a Shapton 16K hone and my Chromium bench strop once every 7 to 10 shaves. Others go longer between honing but I find what I do generally eliminates having to do more elaborate honing or sharpening unless I'm so unfortunate as to nick a blade.

Also, I'm going to cut back to one piece of tape. If the 3 pieces sound extreme to everyone, it probably is. I'm probably treating it like it'll break if I look at it wrong.

You'll be adding a lot of extra work if you drop to 1 or 2 pieces of tape after having worked with 3. Color your bevel with a black marker and take a couple swipes on the hone with only 1 layer of tape and you'll see that only a small portion of the bevel furthest away from the edge will actually touch the hone and if you wish to continue, you'll have to wear away a fair amount of steel to get back to the very edge.... While 3 layers is a bit much, it should not be enough to make the razor shave poorly if it's honed properly and it should have made honing the razor pretty quick in the first place if the edge was in reasonable shape... something that it probably wasn't when you got it in the first place.

Regards

Christian