Thread: When did Breadknifing get popular?

Bart,

Your points a very valid. I used the word "traditional" so I just want to clarify that I'm not sure they used the word "breadknifing". I think it might be a technique that was used and I am thinking that there is probably a more correct term.

I'm not trying to get you riled up.

I am not advocating that you are wrong or that the concept is bad. I do find it a tad extreme. But in extremity we often find effectiveness!

I do also think that if you don't have extensive experience building bevels you shouldn't do it. I'm wondering if, from a bevel creation standpoint that it might be the most challenging bevel to create because there is no guide to recreate the geometry. I mean that if you remove all the bevel then recreating it would be, perhap, even harder.

I don't have enough experience with doing this though, since, well, I've never done it. I'm not sure I would have the skill to fix it.

But I'm not sure that anyone is really trying to negate it. Although I think perhaps some are trying to push that new honers shouldn't use it unless they have no stake in that particular blade.

I also re-read one of your posts and you discuss what I would call light breadknifing. That is probably different than what I've got in my mind. I'm of the impression that we are talking about grinding down a bevel until whatever chip is in the edge is gone.

I think your describing some light perpendicular strokes, too (also), for a particular effect.

Again, I hope my playful reply doesn't put you on the defensive. I don't think your seeing much "contra" because I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing.

I think everyone that might disagree (in 99 out of 100 cases) would at some point stare straight into an edge that would likely best benefit from breadknifing, or perhaps what I would call "perpendicular grinding".

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

...I do find it a tad extreme. But in extremity we often find effectiveness!

I do also think that if you don't have extensive experience building bevels you shouldn't do it. I'm wondering if, from a bevel creation standpoint that it might be the most challenging bevel to create because there is no guide to recreate the geometry. I mean that if you remove all the bevel then recreating it would be, perhap [sic], even harder....

Although I think perhaps some are trying to push that new honers shouldn't use it unless they have no stake in that particular blade....

I think everyone that might disagree (in 99 out of 100 cases) would at some point stare straight into an edge that would likely best benefit from breadknifing, or perhaps what I would call "perpendicular grinding".

It IS extreme, but it's no harder to recreate a bevel than refining one, since the spine and edge automatically create said geometry. It just takes a lot longer.

I am definitely one of those who is pushing new folks to avoid this on razors they truly care about. If it's an experimental razor, well then who cares.


To me, there are some cases (frowns or 1/4" chips) where grinding down the edge is the only option. It's the honing equivalent of tactical nukes.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Its funny that we have guys wanting to shave with a straight but use wild new honing methods . . . er, restoration methods.

... I think where we need to head is a series of pictures that show what a chip is that gets honed out and what a nick is that gets "breadknifed". Being rather traditional I'm not even sure I should actually be using the term "breadknife". I don't really bother reading the forums anymore, I assume that when someone recommends breadknifing that they are also emphasizing the need to recreate a bevel. Recreating a bevel would take me hours and hours.

It sure is true that we have a lot of underhoners too.

I think the diagnoses of honing issues is a big part of the "honemiester" moniker. I wonder if we could build up a better common set of instructions for fixing bevels and assessing sharpness.

Very productive thread though I'd say.

A while ago Lynn was asking about what type of web cast we would like to see in the future. THe end decision was one to demo a complete edge restore w/ a less than perfect EBay special. The second was a demo of a person giving another a shave. This was a while ago so hopefully they will be presented in the near future. I'm sure this would help a lot.

There is a lot of good advice on how to hone and/or repair an edge in the forums here on SRP. I can't understand why newbies are trying to deviate or alter methods that work before they get their first good shave in. I guess they are looking for something other that the good straight shave.

I've had to remove nicks out of old razors to make them serviceable.

Basically you have to remove a lot of metal and the process I found was made easiest by using a low grit hone and honing in the usual way but with a heavy action. In this way, the spine bevel and the edge bevel are kept in line, geometrically. If the metal removal is more than 1/16", the feel of the razor will start to change and the better route would be to send the razor for a full regrind.

Bread knifing is a new one for me, but if you saw away at a chip, surely, it's difficult to saw the extremes of the bade at the toe and at the heel and surely you are likely to put a frown on the blade. Also, whatever time you save removing the chip from the edge must be spent later re establishing the Spine bevel. Strikes me as poor way to go about things.

Now for removing a frown, I can see how you have to grind down the edge and I accept the experience of the seasoned honers and I am proud of them in going to such trouble to save a blade. I however do not enjoy using razors that have been resized by so much. I believe that when a razor gets to such a point of break down, it should be reground.

But it's a free world and it's just a shame that some high quality razors are relatively so inexpensive that they can be ruined by the non caring or inexperienced. The supply of vintage razors is not endless and will eventually dry up.

Here you go gentlemen a nice older Boker.... In for complete restore....

Now please, let's hear your prognosis, look close because the edge is waving at ya !!!!!




Lets see, do I just tell the customer" Gee it sux, the shaving geometry is going to be off, I tossed it out, buy a new one"

Or" Gee I'm sorry it is no longer a nice spike, and the spine looks all worn out, I had to keep honing until it was right"

Come on gentlemen let's get real here, how would you fix that edge??????

BTW just for information, some expert in the past honed it that way.....


PS: The rest of the story, Failure here is not an option, this belongs to one of the gals I work with, it was her Grandfather's, she wants to give it to her husband for Christmas, custom scaled in Tulipwood.....

Originally Posted by Bart

It's not traditional? I wouldn't bet my money on that. I remember Chris L talking about an old coticule he bought that had a groove running at the side, from where the previous owner used to run his edges in a breadknifing motion. I can imagine a home honer, or even a barber, getting a chip in the edge or developing a frown over prolonged time. I can imagine that person bringing his blade to a qualified razor sharpener to restore it in good condition. I wonder what that qualified razor sharpener would have done. Send the razor to the factory for a regrind? Get a straight (or a nice smiling) apex on it and recreate the bevel? (Thanks for the "apex" word, Utopian)

Chris mentioned that particular stone because of it uniqueness. In all of the thousands of stones guys here have, it is the only one with that mark. I've got a honing stone with a groove in it too, it was used for sharpening a particular gouge by my grandfather for a very long time. A unique tool with a unique purpose.

I can imagine a lot of things, that doesn't mean that they ever happened.

It was not uncommon to have the a razor reground especially compared to today. now there are a couple of guys qualified to do it in the country a hundred years ago almost every knife shop had intimate knowledge of straight razors.

Originally Posted by Bart

The only thing that goes against it, is that it, from all things newbies might try without properly understanding what they are doing, is the most counterproductive.

Bingo. Its the shaving equivalent of pulling the engine to change the spark plugs. I've seen several guys in the last week resort to this, before consulting the board, as soon as they encountered a honing hiccup. This is a big thing against it. it is a last resort technique for the extreme blade restorer. If one razor out of a hundred actually needs this technique I'd be surprised

If a noob thinks his blade needs this technique it would be easy enough to get confirmation by posting a picture. If the majority of responses vary from " ewe, thats a problem" to "why in heck did you pay money for that" then it might be a candidate for ripping the whole bevel off. If you get other responses I'd say other techniques ought to be tried first.

Originally Posted by Bart

BTW, I feel this thread should be moved to the advanced honing section.

Bart.

With the number of noobs Breadknifing perfectly good blades, I'd say it belongs wherever they will see it and think twice before exponentially multiplying their difficulty in learning to hone.

Breadknifing? That’s the only thing I don’t like about it- the silly name.

I find that option to be intuitive, rather than regular honing to get rid of wasted material. Breadknifining is intutative. Restoration of the bevel at 1000 grit is quick and easy imho.

Take it one step further and polish the flat ground edge to finish polish and you have a technique. There is not additional removal of material over and above regular honing that I can see- maybe 1/1000th or so.

Originally Posted by kevint

I find that option to be intuitive, rather than regular honing to get rid of wasted material. Breadknifining is intutative. Restoration of the bevel at 1000 grit is quick and easy imho.

That is it in a nutshell. The metal has to come off and if the honer knows how to restore the bevel there is no problem. If OTOH, they don't know how then they have no business fooling with it to begin with. If the metal to be removed is so much that it will affect the geometry of the razor then whether it is worth the cost of the regrind has to be considered. I just sent a Torrey back to an ebay seller as the edge was too badly pitted too far up in and above the bevel to be restorable. Each case has to be judged on it's own merits.

Originally Posted by JimmyH-AD

That is it in a nutshell. The metal has to come off and if the honer knows how to restore the bevel there is no problem. If OTOH, they don't know how then they have no business fooling with it to begin with. If the metal to be removed is so much that it will affect the geometry of the razor then whether it is worth the cost of the regrind has to be considered. I just sent a Torrey back to an ebay seller as the edge was too badly pitted too far up in and above the bevel to be restorable. Each case has to be judged on it's own merits.

Yep, there is a point where regrinding may be necessary, however there are too many good razors still on the market to even concern oneself with that situation, especially considering the razor will be a totally different animal when it returns from the grindshop.

Well Glen,

The razor is waving at you thankfully.

But honestly, it looks to me that it has been honed on a stone which is not flat and this has taken the middle out causing a slight frown.

I'd hold it by its spine and rub the edge on a low grit stone until the edge was even and then reset the bevel probably starting with an 800 grit wet and dry , then 1000 then 1500 a then onto my hones. I'd be checking to see when the bevel on the spine was reset and even along its length, before moving off the 800 grit.

But I wouldn't tell anybody else how to do it and then I wouldn't have to listen to all these guys telling me how to do my job. And I certainly wouldn't give the technique a title. That's just asking for it.

Keep smiling.