Thread: high grit then paste

Hi
I've been reading many comments that end with -- then finish on(insert fine paste of choice) strop.

I really don't get it.

Why go to the expense of aquiring an ultra high grit hone if you are going to finish on a paste?

Looking at the mag photos we can see how quick the paste can work with just a few laps- newbs often cautioned not to overdo the pasted stropping as it can lead to wire edges.

If you look at grit size alone CrOx or .5 diamond paste is roughly comparable to a 30K stone. So, if you had a 30K stone like a Shapton I guess you could say that there is no advantage to using those pastes after the 30K stone. Some take that very approach and are perfectly happy with the results. Others feel that a pasted edge is more comfortable to use even if it isn't necessarily sharper than the edge off a high grit stone. Call it smoother or more refined. Then there is the fact that different razors seem to like different finishing media and you have another reason to have high grit stones and pastes.

I view finishing on a pasted strop as more of just "smoothing out the bevel" then really doing any sharpening. I only do a few laps on chromium oxide if the edge off the hone doesn't cut it. But I only use the paste sparingly after I finish on a coticule if the shave right off the coticule isn't the smoothest.

Dave

Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

I view finishing on a pasted strop as more of just "smoothing out the bevel" then really doing any sharpening. I only do a few laps on chromium oxide if the edge off the hone doesn't cut it. But I only use the paste sparingly after I finish on a coticule if the shave right off the coticule isn't the smoothest.

Dave

I'm a little undecided whether my cot is a fine or super fine, but it's not ultra fine. From 8000 a paste is understandable. And I am sure paste would help my coticule. It's doubling and tripling ~12000 and then paste... maybe the same as 8000 and paste

I think because it's easier to achieve keenness on the pasted strop.

In my present opinion, pastes should only be used to superpolish an already superior edge.
Not to correct a crippled edge.
I don't use them anymore. Maybe when my honing gets better...

Bart.

I have been wrestling with this question for my own honing. On the one hand I know some honemiesters who have the skill and the tools to get a razor scary sharp on hones alone but don't hesitate to say that they finished on paste. I still look at honing razors as a challenge so I feel that until I can achieve the honemiester level on the hones alone I only use the paste as a last resort. If after the first pass the razor isn't up to snuff I get onto the paste before the second pass. This is sometimes all it needed and other times it is back to the hones.

Then I think about how the purpose of the honing is to get the razor sharp and the paste is just another abrasive like the hone so why not take advantage of it ? Matter of fact I have a Bill Ellis custom ATS 34 that I thought I would never get sharp. I had honed and test shaved and went back to the hones 4 times. The last time I did another progression on the high grit Shaptons and then I did 20 laps on Lynn's new felt strop sprayed with the 0.5 diamond spray and that blade was transformed into scary sharp and a great shave. So the paste is useful but I would still like to develop the skill with the hones and avoid using the paste until as Bart says I have improved my skill with the rocks.

There was a thread sometime back on this subject, and of course it went both ways

But one of the more interesting things I read there (I think Bruno posted it) was how some of the EU shaving forums do their sharpening, they basically use one lower grit stone, set the bevel, and then paste the crap out of the edge on slightly loose strops and get great shaves...
I hope Bruno or whoever posted that can link it as it was a very interesting read....
I fall in the use whatever means are necessary to attain the sharpest smoothest edge possible from a particular edge for the longest amount of time catergory....

So how you produce an edge for yourself might be slightly different from how somebody else produces the best edge for themselves.... Heck the razors that we all like are different too, why not how we hone and strop them...

I do believe I started rambling a little there

Originally Posted by gssixgun

There was a thread sometime back on this subject, and of course it went both ways

But one of the more interesting things I read there (I think Bruno posted it) was how some of the EU shaving forums do their sharpening, they basically use one lower grit stone, set the bevel, and then paste the crap out of the edge on slightly loose strops and get great shaves...
I hope Bruno or whoever posted that can link it as it was a very interesting read....
I fall in the use whatever means are necessary to attain the sharpest smoothest edge possible from a particular edge for the longest amount of time catergory....

So how you produce an edge for yourself might be slightly different from how somebody else produces the best edge for themselves.... Heck the razors that we all like are different too, why not how we hone and strop them...

I do believe I started rambling a little there

Yes you did
That was interesting, the German School.
Until we start talking about thinning edges until they break down then nurturing them back to "critical mass" how do you know it's sharp as possible? (assume we don't care how long it lasts because it is too easy to get back)

I used to take my razors from 9um (1200grit) all the way down to 0.5um (30000grit) using diamond lapping film on a precision granite, and then maybe paste them.

After taking a look at my edges under a quality microscope, I determined that going to grits higer than 1um(16000grit) on the hone is what thinned out the egde too much and appeared to lead to a wavy, perhaps fragie edge.

My current proceedure is to hone only until 3um (8000grit) and then I smooth it out with a pasted hanging strop (sometimes that's a 1um diamond paste, sometimes Chrome ox)

Here's an edge straight off the 1um pasted strop (you can see the vertical lines are from the 3um hone, the diagonal lines are from the 1um paste):


I have never found using pates to create an edge that was too thin, but I believe that has to do with the fact that I use hanging strops, and that alters the edge geometry slightly convexing the bevel.

I tried shaving direct off of 0.5um honed edges, but found them to be harsh for me.

Originally Posted by kevint

Yes you did
That was interesting, the German School.
Until we start talking about thinning edges until they break down then nurturing them back to "critical mass" how do you know it's sharp as possible? (assume we don't care how long it lasts because it is too easy to get back)

Ya know there are some pretty smart fellows on this forum, a few that really stand out when it comes to the experimentation on honing...
Randy Tuttle, Mparker are two that really stand out also Josh Earl and Alan /afdavis are in this category too.... these guys did a lot of this work and experimented with a lot of different ways to get the most out of an edge... I read much of their old stuff and built from there.... But regardless of how you get there a razors edge can only get so sharp (smart guy insert .0001 of an inch here please) Once your honing reaches that level yer done, there really is a limit...
I suggest you take a American steel extra hollow ground razor, and push the limit, take it all the way out to .25 diamond maybe even .10 and push it a little more, this will show you just how sharp they can get... At that point you will know the upper limit of sharp, and you know you can reach it... Then back it down one notch and go for smooth and long lasting edges.... OH yeah, let us know how that puppy shaves but ya better be really light on the face (can ya tell I've done this )