Thread: high grit then paste

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

I just don't believe there is a "recipe"-ALL blades are different. So what if you need to go to paste? Who cares? Is the razor SHARP?

If it is sharp and you ENJOY the shave-

And it starts to tug during the middle of the third shave... ?

I've been a heavy paster. I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss pastes, their advantages, their downsides, and how to get the best results. If there are no main principles, let's all go home then, and find something meaningful to talk about.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

Whatever you finish the blade on gives a different feeling, whether that's a Shapton 16K, a Chosera 10K, a Norton 8K, a coticule, a leather strop with CrO, a felt strop with diamond spray. They all feel different. Even the hone that precedes the finisher may shine though the final results.

Let's dive in deep. Here's my theory:

Convexity or not, stropping draws out a bur. This is not a bad thing as such. It is also called a fin, and it is the purpose of plain leather stropping to restore the fin. Fins are drawn out of the steel by a process that Verhoeven calls "plastic deformation", and the steel lacks the original hardness. Therefor the need to realign the fin prior to each shave. The more keenness you lack after the hones, the more you will rely on pasted stropping to make up for that. The fin will be larger. Large fins are weaker. On a pasted hanging strop, convexing comes into play. This might keep the fin a bit shorter for the same keenness.

On a well honed blade, very little pasted stropping is needed, to add a little extra to the edge. Maybe the fin even benefits from it.

That's my premise right now.
Shoot at will.

Bart.

A large fin can be achieved by excess honing or stropping with pastes.
Sounds like a short convexed fin would be a durable long lasting edge. Is this what you are saying ?

I couldn't agree more BART,regardless if you use PASTE or hones or a combination thereof- there are NO main principles. We DO have alot to talk about.

No one can guarantee paste will give you a more durable edge than going from the stones to the strop. I will stand by my statement- a sharp blade is all that matters. IMO, there are no downsides to any approach that gives you a quality shave. Even if you were to hone EVERY shave-but get a perfect shave, wouldn't it be worth the effort?

Forgive me if you think I don't see the purpose of this thread. We all have our own methods of getting to the "perfect edge". I said it before- there are many paths to the same destination. There are many here that think using a paste is somehow "cheating".

Yes , paste may change the overall shape of your bevel and create a "convex" shape. But why not shave-enjoy the edge and when you paste no longer works-go back to the hones and start all over again.

I'm already HOME, and I find it meaningful to discuss methods of making the shave more enjoyable and spread my enthusiasm about Str8's in general.

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

I just don't believe there is a "recipe"-ALL blades are different. So what if you need to go to paste? Who cares? Is the razor SHARP?

If it is sharp and you ENJOY the shave-

I am certainly not asking for a recipe Lt. I find your font to be a bit over the top for such a humble discussion. Can you tone that down please?

Imho this is not a thread about enjoying the shave. It can be about the shave as test. I pretty much know that with 8000 or equivalent and cromostrop I can get a clean, enjoyable shave. As you say there is not a reliable recipe. My argument is based on exploring the full capacity of the hone and learning skills to trick them into giving us their secrets. Hee hee mystical sounding

The sound of one hand honing

Originally Posted by kevint

My argument is based on exploring the full capacity of the hone and learning skills to trick them into giving us their secrets. Hee hee mystical sounding

+1 That is what I am after too.

Originally Posted by kevint

Hi
I've been reading many comments that end with -- then finish on(insert fine paste of choice) strop.

I really don't get it.

Why go to the expense of aquiring an ultra high grit hone if you are going to finish on a paste?

Looking at the mag photos we can see how quick the paste can work with just a few laps- newbs often cautioned not to overdo the pasted stropping as it can lead to wire edges.

I don't want to oversimplify your question- and I will even go to a smaller font for this discussion- and IMO, its not humble but a legitimate honing issue.

I have used paste for some time- I have also added a 30K Shapton recently. I will stand by my previous statement. Each and every blade responds differently. I have an NOS Filarmonica for instance. I cannot achieve a comfortable,keen edge just using hones. I have found that .50 diamond paste on a balsa strop works better than a progression of Shapton glass hones or coticules followed by an Escher . I don't subscribe to the theory that a wire edge can result from using a pasted strop.

I also have a LeGrelot 6/8 3/4 hollow that absolutely refuses to give a nice shave off hones-paste is necessary. Yet, I have found the Shapton 30K hone to bring some razors to an edge that I have never been able to reach using any other method. The feedback a 30K Shapton gives is an indication for me. Some razors will not hone smoothly- it seems the steel "smears" along the hone instead of cutting. Reagrdless of pressure. I have used this hone on at least 30 razors and realize it isn't the answer for EVERY blade.

After establishing a bevel, I may use different methods to get to the finishing stage of honing. Further, I may decide to go to paste directly off the coticule and skip the 16K and 30K shapton- all this is stricly by feel.

I realize you aren't ASKING for the recipe. I am just making a simple statement. Each and every razor we attempt to hone requires attention-we must figure out what works. The fact that there is somehow a stigma attached to pastes- that somehow they are "cheating" is, at least IMO. Stupid.

I think I am in the same camp as Jimmy, and some others, here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see pastes as cheating at all, but I still avoid using them. Why? Because as many on this forum have said, pastes can give you a great edge, but they can also cover up for poor honing. As I am stil learning how to hone, it is he latter which want to avoid, so I always shave right off the hones so I can tell where I am up to, and try to improve my technique. When I am happy with my honing technique I may see what pastes can do for me.

Connor

Originally Posted by Rosco

I think I am in the same camp as Jimmy, and some others, here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see pastes as cheating at all, but I still avoid using them. Why? Because as many on this forum have said, pastes can give you a great edge, but they can also cover up for poor honing. As I am stil learning how to hone, it is he latter which want to avoid, so I always shave right off the hones so I can tell where I am up to, and try to improve my technique. When I am happy with my honing technique I may see what pastes can do for me.

Connor

Exactly!

Layup or 3-pointer?

I like to know that I nailed the edge with a rock.

Originally Posted by Rosco

I think I am in the same camp as Jimmy, and some others, here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see pastes as cheating at all, but I still avoid using them. Why? Because as many on this forum have said, pastes can give you a great edge, but they can also cover up for poor honing. As I am stil learning how to hone, it is he latter which want to avoid, so I always shave right off the hones so I can tell where I am up to, and try to improve my technique. When I am happy with my honing technique I may see what pastes can do for me.

Connor

Originally Posted by kelbro

Exactly!

Layup or 3-pointer?

I like to know that I nailed the edge with a rock.

That is what I am saying. I don't call it cheating. It is another road to the same destination. I just want to be able to regularly get there with the hones. Once I am confident in my ability to do that I will feel more free to experiment with these other abrasives. After all, they are all abrasives. I am shaving with what was the only thing available to do it with for a couple of hundred years up until the turn into the twentieth century and I want to sharpen them with the only thing that was available up until the twentieth century. The pastes are another arrow in the quiver and a perfectly legitimate way to go. I like chrom ox and I love the diamond spray on the felt hanging strop. It may be the only way I can get my ATS 34 or my TI Damascus scary sharp but if I can get them with the hones I would feel that I had made it to where I want to be.