Thread: The World's Cheapest 30k Hone

Originally Posted by dylandog

I thought the idea was to sort of remind people that they don't need to spend ~$300 for a Nakayama or a Shapton 30K to get a killer edge.

I like this thread a lot, for two reasons: first, because I love chrome oxide, and I think it's gotten a bit of a bum rap lately, with all these overplayed themes about "weak edges," "pastes are cheating," and so on. And secondly, because this thread is a good reminder that it's all about ingenuity, not acquisition!

Originally Posted by Seraphim

+1

I was going to say the exact same thing. Too much paste really does weird things....and not in agood way.

Originally Posted by dylandog

I agree with what you say here, English. Chrome oxide does reduce the durability of the edge. By how much? is a question that yields different answers. My feeling is that this edge-life question has been discussed so much that it's become more an academic than a practical question. I.e. that people are becoming wary of chrome oxide because a "weak edge" sounds really inferior and substandard, rather than because they're actually encountering a problem with edge-life. (5-10 strokes every couple of weeks on chromed linen or on a balsa block like Chris's takes no time at all.) That's all I meant by "bum rap." I appreciate your point, though, and maybe my point was overstated.



I have a linen strop with chrome oxide on one side and TI paste on the other. The TI side is pretty dark with metal particles, even though I barely ever use it. The chrome oxide side shows very little grey, if any.

I think a very light pasting of chrome oxide does wonders, both for immediate performance and for edge-durability. Ghost of green is what I go for.

+1.
I think Dylandog got in touch with all the nuances. Honing on stones and stropping on pastes both call for carefull consideration when to do how much on which abrasive medium.
That said, after a long interruption, I recently started using CrO again. I have it on a loom strop that I keep very taut. Do you guys thing that it makes a difference, whether you have it on a felt pad, balsa, a paddle, or a loom strop? I can see the difference between slack and taut, but I 'm primarily asking about the different substrates.

I always test my edge with a HHT after finishing on a hone. My HHT is calibrated, which means that I have a strand of hair in a box, for HHT-use and that I know how to read the outcome, just like I know how to read the other sharpness test. When I strop my freshly honed edge, I always notice a very distict improvement in the HHT. I call that "getting a fin going". Sometimes I have a razor that has difficulty "getting a good fin going" on just the strop, although the test results before stropping all indicate a good honing job. In such cases I do about light 10 laps on my CrO loom strop. It mostly does the job. The funny thing is, razors that "get the fin going" right of the leather strop, show no improvement whatsoever from the CrO, not in the HHT-results, nor during shave tests.

After a number of shaves, when plain leather stropping no longer seems to restore the fin, I find that 20 laps on my loom strop usually bring it up to par again, but that "second round" never holds as many shaves as the "first round". In my personal shaving practice, let's say a dozen shaves from "round 1" and 8 or so from "round 2". I 've always kept doing touch-ups on CrO, but I haven't tried a third one in a long time. Do you guys have similar experiences?

Nice thread ,

Bart.

Originally Posted by kevint

you have a beard. be serious

I didn't want to scare the children with this as my avatar:

Originally Posted by Bart

+1.
I have it on a loom strop that I keep very taut. Do you guys thing that it makes a difference, whether you have it on a felt pad, balsa, a paddle, or a loom strop? I can see the difference between slack and taut, but I 'm primarily asking about the different substrates.

I've never used it on a loom strop. I've used it on a firm paddle, both on leather and on balsa, and on two linen hangers (one soft and the other very stiff and canvas-y). Of these four surfaces, my best results by far are on the stiff canvas.

Originally Posted by Bart

After a number of shaves, when plain leather stropping no longer seems to restore the fin, I find that 20 laps on my loom strop usually bring it up to par again, but that "second round" never holds as many shaves as the "first round". In my personal shaving practice, let's say a dozen shaves from "round 1" and 8 or so from "round 2". I 've always kept doing touch-ups on CrO, but I haven't tried a third one in a long time. Do you guys have similar experiences?

Hmmm. No, I haven't really had that diminishing-returns effect some describe. Or at least it's not very dramatic. More of a steep falling-off after a period of great service. I do 5-10 laps (no more) on the hard canvas (pulled very taut) after a fresh honing. Very light laps, much lighter than what I'm doing on the plain leather. Then refreshes every 8-10 shaves. This pattern usually holds for 2-3 months, at which point the razor loses keenness and the chrome oxide doesn't bring it back. Then I do 35 or so laps on the escher w/slurry, then 35 w/plain water, and I'm back to square one.

I don't have the diminishing-returns thing, and when it is time to re-hone I don't have to go back and "reset the bevel" (in the sense of going back to low- or medium-grit hones). So whatever rounding I'm getting from the pasted linen must be rather minor (indeed I don't think I can even see it with my radio shack microscope at 60x). These are the reasons why I don't hesitate at all to use chrome oxide in moderation.

Moderation means four things for me: 1. very lightly pasted surface; 2. very light strokes; 3. very few strokes; and 4. only on a razor initially made shave-ready on hones.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Hmmm. No, I haven't really had that diminishing-returns effect some describe. Or at least it's not very dramatic. More of a steep falling-off after a period of great service.

So, if I understand correctly, you can do a number of CrO touch-ups, till you do a final touch-up that turns out to be ineffective?

Originally Posted by dylandog

I do 5-10 laps (no more) on the hard canvas (pulled very taut) after a fresh honing. Very light laps, much lighter than what I'm doing on the plain leather. Then refreshes every 8-10 shaves. This pattern usually holds for 2-3 months, at which point the razor loses keenness and the chrome oxide doesn't bring it back. Then I do 35 or so laps on the escher w/slurry, then 35 w/plain water, and I'm back to square one.

That sounds about the same light CrO use, as I do. I do a few laps more, but my loom strop is very short. Rehoning does not involve bevel correction in this case. I might do a limited number of laps on a Coticule with slurry, just for good meassure, next I generally go straight up to a Chosera 10K for about 20 laps and finish on a hard Coticule with water, or on a Nakayama, depending on the razor.

Originally Posted by dylandog

When it is time to re-hone I don't have to go back and "reset the bevel" (in the sense of going back to low- or medium-grit hones). So whatever rounding I'm getting from the pasted linen must be rather minor (indeed I don't think I can even see it with my radio shack microscope at 60x). These are the reasons why I don't hesitate at all to use chrome oxide in moderation.

I don't think such limited and taut pasted stropping on as fine a medium as CrO will cause any significant convexity. I think it depends much on beard type and personal shaving style, how soon the edge dulls. It also depends on the razor. I have a 7/8 Bartmann that has 28 shaves on the counter (yes I keep record ) and still showing no sign of edge deterioration. That's more than triple of what I can get out of my least sturdy blade (an S.Pearson&Co) I also have a 4/8 Friodur that seems to keep going on a long time. (I already got that prior to the record keeping, and I don't use it all that much, so I don't really know how long exactly)

Kind regards,
Bart.

COME ONE are you trying to foul UUSSS
BLADE IS MOVING WRONG DIRECTION ON YOUR HONE?


THIS IS just a joke

Originally Posted by English

First, I thought Chromium Oxide was 50,000 grit not 30,000.

"Po-tay-to" "Po-tah-to" as we Americans say.

Grit references are virtually useless. I agree wholeheartedly with Randy when he says to speak the same language we should really refer to particle sizes in their micron equivalent. Why? Shapton says .5 micron is 30,000 grit. Hand American says the chrome ox that was offered through HA was 60,000 grit. I choose to side with Shapton over HA on this.

Second Chromium Oxide has not had a bum rap recently. Everybody agrees that the Chromium Oxide will smooth an edge as well as you could wish.

But it is not the same as a natural hone and it has the disadvantage of reducing the life of the edge.

Humph, the life of the edge argument. I don't necessarily disagree with you. But, I'd respectfully retort that IMO, who cares? I put chrome ox on balsa, newspaper and I've put it on a hanging leather strop (I did not prefer that. Sub par results for me in the form of edge rounding). I keep the balsa piece you see in this post in my medicine chest because it's the easiest method of storage. The reason I don't care if the edges don't last as long is because (every ten or so shaves for me, not five or less) the small amount of light passes I use takes less than thirty seconds. My stones including my Nakayama Asagi are in the basement.

You can also put the powder or the paste on leather or newspaper. You will get the same result honing a razor as a final polish on these mediums.

The one thing that surprises me looking at the photographs is how clean the hones are. Even using a very light stroke, I have always found that Chromium Oxide takes away a lot of metal and it leaves the hone that tell tale grey colour.

Originally Posted by English

Ray,

The results off pastes are stunning, no question Sharp and buttery smooth. But the bottom line is it doesn't last for long. Three, four, five shaves and you have to hit the paste again. This in itself isn't a problem but eventually, the bevel rounds and ceases to give a good shave and then you need to go back and set the bevel again.

Again, for me I don't view this as a problem. Then I take the razor down to the hones and refine the edge the way I want it. I don't revert back to "setting the bevel" as I define "setting the bevel". "Setting bevels" for me happen on low grit stones. Once I've "set a bevel" on a razor that razor rarely if ever would see a stone coarser than 4k and most often I work it a bit on an 8k.

I used to use paste and loved the shaves. I now finish on an Escher and leather strop. The result for me at least is just as good and the blade will last a month before needing a touch up and years between setting the bevel again.

The difference for me is less ware on the razors edge and a longer time between maintenance work.

It's the point that the guys who use natural hones keep on pushing but don't get listened to. Top end Japanese hones being considered by some to give a smoother edge than an Escher.

My two cents.

Originally Posted by cassady

My ChromOx from Handamerican says 0.5 micron 60,000 grit.

cass

I don't know where they get that from, Cass. See above.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

It really depends on the grit size measuring system that's being used.
To avoid confusion just use the Micron size as your guide.
All I know is that it gives me an edge that I really like!

+1

Chris L

Originally Posted by cassady
My ChromOx from Handamerican says 0.5 micron 60,000 grit.

Originally Posted by Chris L

I don't know where they get that from, Cass.
Chris L

I'd always assumed grit meant particles per inch.
If that were true,
60,000 grit=60,000 particles per inch
=60,000/25.4*1000=2,362,204 particles per metre

1/(2,362,204)=particle size of 4.2e-7 metres

which is roughly 0.5 micron.

Of course that would be too logical, I've seen how different countries/companies have completely different interpretations.

Originally Posted by Rajagra

I didn't want to scare the children with this as my avatar:

transformed. right on

But back to balsa what sold you on it Chris

Originally Posted by Chris L

I don't know where they get that from, Cass. See above.



+1

Chris L

I'm all about microns. I was just quoting the jar!

Originally Posted by RayG

Sometime back I saw a video of the Mastro sharpening a razor using muliple passes on a LONG loom strop with CrO. Lots of passes.

That led me to thinking - does it really matter how you progress through what expensive stones? As long as you have a bevel, could you end up with the same edge after a couple of hundred passes on CrO, as you would progressing through stones, THEN finishing with CrO?

I have also seen Robert (papabull) hitting a burred edge with red paste on a belt, followed by a finer paste, then finishing with multiple passes on 0.25 diamond paste on a loom strop. Same great result.

I'd be curious to hear what folks think.

This is what I was saying, but could be they are not really the same. I have noticed that different styles of razors lend themselves to certain types of maintenance

maybe its a shallow angle on the delicate ones, or the weight of the robust ones.