Thread: Now I get what Bart's been saying...

Bart, thanks again for all your great research and insights, and for taking the time to explain them at length. (By the way, I don't think you're wasting words.)

The only part of your findings that doesn't completely jibe with my own (admittedly much more sloppy and intuitive) findings is where you say that a blue will get the edge keener than the coticule can. In my experience, a coticule with very light slurry keens up a razor very quickly, and takes it further than what I can do with my blue. But this may be a distinction without a difference, because your fundamental point I agree with: versatile as they are both as cutters and polishers, coticules do not in themselves bring the razor to ideal keenness.

My escher (first with slurry, then without) seems to be able to get that last bit of sharp much better. So my basic standby approach is to cut the bevel with a DMT 1200, polish it with the blue+slurry til it cuts arm hairs, polish it with yellow+light slurry til it quietly fells arm hairs, then polish it with the escher til I'm bored, impatient, or the phone rings.

If things don't work out with the swaty, I'll go back to this. But your analysis makes so much sense to me, and integrates so many odd observations I've made along the way, that I want to see if using the swaty after the blue, then using the yellow with water only, and stopping there (no escher) gives me comparable or maybe even better edges.

Originally Posted by dylandog

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I can't afford a Chosera or a Shapton right now, so I'm hoping that even the lowly swaty will work.

I went to buy a coticule online recently. When I saw the overnight 50% price increase, I decided to wait for an antique shop (or maybe classifieds) find.

As long as it's reasonably flat, the Swaty is all the finishing hone you'll need after an 8k stage. I always finish on a barber hone, often followed by newspaper. I have 4 to 6 "favorite" barber hones, the Swaty is one of them.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I went to buy a coticule online recently. When I saw the overnight 50% price increase, I decided to wait for an antique shop (or maybe classifieds) find.

I have been talking to Rob of Ardennes Coticule (for those that may not know, the last quarry that remains operational) about this "price increase". He officially denied that there is a price increase. He said prices haven not been changed for over a year, but of course they have no complete control about what retailers are doing once the hones are out. Ether way, prices on the Ardennes website and on many other sources are what they always were. Rob also said the bussiness has been booming recently, more dealers worldwide have interest in selling the hones. Because of this, they are able to reopen the old mine of Regné, which gains access to some legendary coticule veins. He also said Coticule is far from being depleted, and that they are extremely busy with making that mine safely accesible. He sounded very excited about it, and I have made a apointment of going there when the wether breaks in the Spring.

Originally Posted by Sticky

As long as it's reasonably flat, the Swaty is all the finishing hone you'll need after an 8k stage. I always finish on a barber hone, often followed by newspaper. I have 4 to 6 "favorite" barber hones, the Swaty is one of them.

I am sure that there are many ways to achieve a good edge, and that it doesn't always need to include a Coticule. I just happen to have a special fondness developed for those hones that come from my homeland. For over a year I have sticked to honing primarily on the Belgian hones (and a DMT-E, that I later on learned to omit), and I believe I have reached quite an understanding about how they work. Some of that understanding is purely hypothesis. But it sure is a hypothesis that predicts my outcome and brought me further in maximizing the results.
It may often seem as if I don't know any other hones, which is true for the most part. Please don't confuse that with disrespect for the other hones. I am very much aware that outstanding results are more the results of the craftsmen than off his tools. That counts for honing as well.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

I have been talking to Rob of Ardennes Coticule (for those that may not know, the last quarry that remains operational) about this "price increase". He officially denied that there is a price increase.
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I was referring to local U.S. retail prices. I rarely order from overseas unless I know what the import duties will be first.

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It may often seem as if I don't know any other hones, which is true for the most part. Please don't confuse that with disrespect for the other hones.
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I wasn't confused at all, my post was explicitly addressing dylandog's concerns about a Swaty. Sorry if you misunderstood my post.

Originally Posted by Sticky

As long as it's reasonably flat, the Swaty is all the finishing hone you'll need after an 8k stage. I always finish on a barber hone, often followed by newspaper. I have 4 to 6 "favorite" barber hones, the Swaty is one of them.

In a thread that deals about finishing on a Coticule, I hardly need to read between the lines, to read your opinion. In don't think I misunderstood, and I felt like stating to anyone folowing this thread that I would in no way come across like someone that dismisses all hones and honing options that he's unfamiliar with.

That said, Dylandog was not talking about using his Swaty for finishing. He's actually planning to seek extra keenness after the Belgian Blue and afterwards finishing that edge (if he finds it) with his Coticule. We have a member, (something with "johnny") that used several barber hones in a honing progression. He had some overhoning issues, and I remember Puffah giving some top shelf advice how to overcome that... (back after a forum search)
Here's the orginal thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...agreeable.html
I believes it contains valuable information about the use of barber hones for non-finishing purposes.

Bart.

One criticism about finishng on paste is that the edge does not last as long. Does this edge last longer when brought back down to the coticule after the paste? In other words, in addition to retaining the sharpness from the paste, but now smoother from the coticule, does it also last longer?

Originally Posted by dylandog

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I can't afford a Chosera or a Shapton right now, so I'm hoping that even the lowly swaty will work.

Originally Posted by Bart

In a thread that deals about finishing on a Coticule, I hardly need to read between the lines, to read your opinion. In don't think I misunderstood, and I felt like stating to anyone folowing this thread that I would in no way come across like someone that dismisses all hones and honing options that he's unfamiliar with.

Yup, you misunderstood...

The reason I included dylandog's last paragraph in my original reply was to make it explicitly clear that I was replying to the very limited remark of "I'm hoping that even the lowly swaty will work.". To reiterate my first reply in simpler terms that you might be less likely to misinterpret, "Yes, it will." This assumes that the Swaty is of course reasonably flat and undamaged.

One should never assume that I meant anything beyond precisely what was in the reply. It really is that simple. Wishful thinking perhaps?

EDIT: since he thanked me for the reply, it's reasonable to assume that he understood my meaning well enough to find it useful.

Originally Posted by RayG

One criticism about finishng on paste is that the edge does not last as long. Does this edge last longer when brought back down to the coticule after the paste? In other words, in addition to retaining the sharpness from the paste, but now smoother from the coticule, does it also last longer?

That's a good idea, but I'm not sure it would work.
Building sharpness on pasted strops usually puts a degree of convexity in the bevel's shape. That puts the very edge out of reach of a flat hone. A Coticule with water can't correct such convexity.
Maybe coming off a balsa strops, the convexity would be absent enough to go to business on a Coticule. I'm not sure.
At the same time, if you're accustomed to the feel and smoothness of a particular type of paste, the Coticule will certainly undo that finish obviously replace it with its own. Some may find that desirable, others may not.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Sticky

I was referring to local U.S. retail prices. I rarely order from overseas unless I know what the import duties will be first.

Home Page of HTS :2009-02-01 - Revision 1, Official Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States Annotated

Originally Posted by dylandog

I'm reiterating all of this because I want to make sure I've understood correctly. This would explain a lot to me. I remember for example that in one of the old "Lynn's tips" stickies, Lynn described doing 1/15 pyramids between the Norton 8K and the coticule with light slurry. I never understood why Lynn was pyramiding between the Norton & the coticule, but now it makes perfect sense: the occasional stroke on the aggressive Norton corrects any slight rounding resulting from the smoothing action of the 15 coticule strokes.

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Pyramiding may also help complete a bevel that is not 100% formed tho I do understand your point is about coticule plus slurry causing 'rounding'

Great thread. I never tire reading about Coticules