Thread: small BBW

Coticules and Belgian Blues both use garnets to cut. The blue's garnets are between 10 and 20 microns and the Coticule has garnets ranging between 5 and 15 microns. Hence the Blue has bigger garnets, but still it is a much (and I mean much) slower hone than the average Coticule. Garnets are a sort of faceted round particles that spin underneath the steel while cutting. I think the bigger garnets of the blue have the pressure spread out over a bigger surface and therefor penetrate the steel less deep, making it a shalower cutter than a Coticule. Maybe the garnet's faceted edges in the Blue are not as keen as those in Coticule. I'm only speculating. But the everyday experience is that with many Coticules you can remove steel pretty fast, as long as you raise a slurry. It doesn't need to be thick. Milky is fine. On hard razor's steel (and also on other tool steel), the Blue with slurry comes nowhere near the speed of a Coticule. Actually, the funny thing is, the Blue is mined for as long as Coticule is mined (many ages), because they can't get to the Coticule if they don't remove the Blue at first. But it is only very recently that it was discovered that the Blue has honing qualities. The Blue is a great polisher of already keen edges, and it has also the ability to refine an edge after it comes off the Coticule with slurry. The use of slurry makes the keenness of the edge level off at a given point. But the Blue with slurry is able to push it further than the Coticule with slurry.
Although I own a DMT1200, and used it at the time I wrote that article that's now in the Wiki, nowadays I hardly ever use my DMT. I always set the bevel on a Coticule. If the slurry shows gray discoloration within 15 to 20 laps or so (or even sooner), than your Coticule is fast enough to do bevel work. The resulting bevels are excellent: they shave arm hair quite well and have no deep scratches, which leaves the blade completely ready for further keenification on the Blue, or on any synthetic hone in the 8K-10K range. Some people even take it (progressively) all the way to a Shapton 16K before finishing it on the same Coticule, now with only water. Coticules are extremely slow when used with water only and they leave an edge that tends to be very forgiving and smooth during the shave, for many people.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

If the slurry shows gray discoloration within 15 to 20 laps or so (or even sooner), than your Coticule is fast enough to do bevel work.

Easy test! Very clear. Thank you!!

Originally Posted by Bart

The Blue is a great polisher of already keen edges, and it has also the ability to refine an edge after it comes off the Coticule with slurry. The use of slurry makes the keenness of the edge level off at a given point. But the Blue with slurry is able to push it further than the Coticule with slurry.


Best regards,
Bart.

This is not clear to me.
If Blue is a better refine(improve is my understanding) edge stone then why it is price not same as Escher's yellow coticules etc?
We price hones buy not fast cutting but how fine edge comes out from particular hone?I really don't understand and may be won;t until have better explanation(may be my english isn't good enough).
don't know but not agree with that idea.
Question is why?The use of slurry makes the keenness of the edge level off at a given point.

I do know there is yellow coticules will cut fast and act as same as 4000 grit hones(i had one before).My problem not fast cutting but putting final edge.I think yellow coticule good ones will put final edge better always then BBW.

about pricing...

BBW is plenty available: they build entire houses in it in the region where it is found.
Coticule is much less readily available in much smaller veins and difficult to extract.
Eshers come from a mine that's closed and flooded under water. You can only by vintage collector's hones.

There's your price difference.

As far as performance differences. I'm only stating what I have found through testing a variety of Coticules and Blues in a pretty scientific setup. You can read my old threads about that.
I hope to go to Ardennes Coticules in April or May, when they're fully stocked with new hones again (they can't extract raw coticule during winter), and collect more empiric data.
But the difference in speed between a Blue and a Yellow is really very obvious.

Best regards,
Bart.

Somehow I doubt a coticule with any kind of slurry will be nearly as aggressive or efficient as a Norton 1000 for retooling dull and chipped ebay razors

Personally, I use a King 1K stone, BBW with slurry (which I slowly dilute till I end up with just water), and then my coticule with a little lather (to prevent the water from beading).

A coticule with slurry will cut faster than a BBW with slurry (I'm pretty sure this will almost always be the case), and I believe that is why the wiki suggests the coticule with slurry, BBW with slurry, BBW with water, coticule with water method.

You'll have to figure out what works with you given your stones. The BBW and coticules are all different because they are natural. I didn't want to take the time to experiment with what my coticule could do with a slurry, so I took the lazy route and stuck with the 1K for the low end work.

Bringing a butter knife dull blade to perfect sharpness with one coticule is as satisfying as it comes. It might take a little longer but you learn the dynamics of the natural coticule. I aspire to be a "blade whisperer". MikeB

I use the barts method all the time and it works on my razors and shaves my fairly thick stubble realy well and also achieves a smooth edge you carn't over hone its realy easy method. I have tryed finishing on on yellow with slurry it dulled my edge to where no way could i shave comfortable i then rescued that blade with some lap[s on yellow wiyh plain water but still i find my edge was sharper with blue slurry then yellow water i somtimes slot 8k noton in between the blue and yellow i also finish on chr.5 to make things a little smoother and keener but to be onest i find it does'nt make a notisable differance as the belgiums realy do the smoothing.. I have the a small bbw stone and i prefer to my larger one i think it measures5 by 1 and a half inch it is a combo the other side is kosher grade yellow.

Thanks! I think I will buy the small one: I like the idea of a pocket stone even if I'll probably never keep it into my pocket.. and I leave the other half of the big stone for the future generations.. eh!

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Somehow I doubt a coticule with any kind of slurry will be nearly as aggressive or efficient as a Norton 1000 for retooling dull and chipped ebay razors

I can't comment on that, because I have no Norton 1K. However, I have Coticules that rival my DMT-E.
If you correlate the garnet size of Coticules with particle size on synthetic waterhones, that puts Coticules in the 1.5K ball park.
But the resulting edge is way smoother than that. But not the keenness. I think that's what's so confusing about them. With slurry on a Coticule you end up at 1.5K sharpness level while getting no micro serrations as on most synthetic hones in that range. The edge is smoother than an 8K, but not as keen. Diluting the slurry helps, but it's pretty unpredictable how far you gonna get. That's why it comes in handy to have "mediator hone" to boost keenness, before you can finish on the same Coticule with water (which leaves the keennes intact, because the garnets stay embedded in the surface of the hone).
Of course there are other great hones and methods for finishing, and also for doing bevel work. But Coticules excel at both. The only thing they don't excel in is in what I call "keenification", although the dilluting trick sometimes produces edges for me that absolutely are "as good as it ever gets". I've still not entirely figured out why it's so unpredictable, and the search for a Coticule that's consistent in that field continues, as well as the quest for a better method.
In the mean time, the Belgian Blue Whetstone with a light slurry is a great companion to "fill the gap". Aren't we lucky in Belgium?

Best regards,
Bart.