Thread: Need Advice for My Stainless

Originally Posted by Ryan82

I should also mention that my regular go-to shaver will not shave arm hair suspended above the skin, yet it provides a comfortable close shave.

You'll find members here who insist that if a razor doesn't pass the HHT it isn't shave worthy in their eyes. I have found personally that I have gotten good shaves off razors that didn't pass HHT. For me though I don't shave with a razor that won't pop hair suspended above the skin. Just what works for me. As Lynn says, the only important test is the shave so if it works for you that is cool.

how big is your coticule Ryan? Mine is 1.5' x 6. I wonder if that is considered a small coticule therefore requiring more strokes...?

Made any process on the friodur?

Originally Posted by Dups

how big is your coticule Ryan? Mine is 1.5' x 6. I wonder if that is considered a small coticule therefore requiring more strokes...?

Made any process on the friodur?

Mine is 6x2.... bought it as a finisher for touch-ups and that's why I didn't go for the combo that Zib offered me originally. It's a versatile stone though, so that's good. I just didn't think that I would be doing more than a touch-up this early in the game. As for the Friodur, that will be a this weekend project. Hopefully.

Your coticule sounds like it should be fine. The narrower stones are supposed to be good for multiple purposes, including targeting specific areas of the blade, which a 3" stone would have more problems doing IMHO. I did read your thread about that Dovo tortoise. Just throwing this out there but do you think it is possible that with the narrow hone some of your honing pressure is applied on other parts of the blade other than the heel?

Originally Posted by Ryan82

I am curious as to why some members are advocating full out bevel setting, yet Bart is saying that if the razor does shave arm/leg hair then the bevel should be fine in theory (sorry if I misunderstood you Bart)?

A bevel is just two flat planes, that are meeting at the keenest possible tip.

Now, you need to establish the flatness of those planes on a hone that can remove steel fast enough. Once they're flat, the only way to make the tip narrower, is to remove a layer of steel off the entire planes. Also that calls for a hone with sufficient abrasive force and speed. Let's look at a picture of the razor I'm working on tonight:


Looks fine, doesn't it.
Suppose I can move up to the next hone, slower but finer...

But wait, lets put the blade up side down under the scope and see if we can get a focus on the actual bevel tip...








What's that shiny strip in the middle????
Well, it's the width of the bevel tip, still way too wide to do anything beneficial on a finer hone that would take me all year removing steel from the sides to refine that tip.

To conclude, my point is, that once the tip is narrow enough to shave arm hair, you can use fairly slow and fine hones to remove another thin layer of the bevel sides and get the tip even keener.
Each stage has it's goal. Coming of a 1K-2K hone, shaving arm hair is good. If that results in a fairly "toothy" edge, that edge will feel very sticky to the TPT and might also pop arm hairs above skin level, because the teeth add a lot of "catch" to the edge. Sadly such edges also like to catch facial skin... But if done on a hone that doesn't leave a "toothy" edge, such as our Coticule with slurry, the edge won't be that performant. Shaving arm hair is good enough.
The Blue, or in your case the diluting slurry cycle, is used to get the bevel tip narrower. If you had a synthetic 5-8K and a synthetic 8-12K you could get the tip even narrower.
The higher up in the progression, the less the hone will be able to remove, but the less there is required to remove.
To make a bevel tip of 20µ 50% keener, we need to bring it down with 10µ. That may represent a lot of steel that needs to come off the bevel sides. To make a bevel tip of 1µ 50% keener, we only need to bring it down with 0.5µ. It should not be that hard to understand that working on an edge of 20µ with a hone that's only capable of removing 0.5µ in a reasonable time frame, would not be very advisable. If all this sloppy math tells us anything, it's that you need to complete the right amount of work on each hone. Depending on the hone, it may take 20 laps or 200 laps.
Getting the bevel ready to take the first leap, is the goal to be achieved on your Coticule with slurry. That goal is reached when you can shave arm hair with the razor.

Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

Getting the bevel ready to take the first leap, is the goal to be achieved on your Coticule with slurry. That goal is reached when you can shave arm hair with the razor.

Bart.

Sounds good Bart, I'm finally feeling optimistic about my chances with this razor.

Now, I've already established that this non-whisker shaving razor will indeed shave arm/leg hair. So would you recommend first trying coticule with water only? Should I go directly to the diluted slurry stage? Or should I try some combination of both?

PS - for my specific razor, a 7/8 SS Friodur, I have heard that it is highly recommended to use 3 to 4 layers of tape with these. This razor is supposed to respond well to this method. Is this something you would advise?

Thanks for your patience,

Ryan

Originally Posted by Ryan82

Sounds good Bart, I'm finally feeling optimistic about my chances with this razor.

Now, I've already established that this non-whisker shaving razor will indeed shave arm/leg hair. So would you recommend first trying coticule with water only? Should I go directly to the diluted slurry stage? Or should I try some combination of both?

PS - for my specific razor, a 7/8 SS Friodur, I have heard that it is highly recommended to use 3 to 4 layers of tape with these. This razor is supposed to respond well to this method. Is this something you would advise?

Thanks for your patience,

Ryan

I never make a difference between honing stainless or high carbon steel. I normally don't use tape. Only if I need to protect a fancy spine, I add one layer of tape.
For honing a wedge, I make an exception and I might use 3 layers of tape, to get a narrower and more even bevel.
Sometimes if a razor refuses to become sharp enough, after repeated attempts, I add 2 layers of tape and cut a small secondary bevel with my "keenest" hone (the Chosera 10K) and finish that on a Coticule. I rather do that than convex the edge on a pasted strop, which offers a similar shot at striking more keenness.

But I have never observed any steady differences between stainless and carbon.

I own exactly the same Friodur, and it took an awesome edge without any peculiar problem. I didn't use any tape. That razor is lend at the moment to a member that had longevity problems. He speaks quite lyrical about its performance. Here's the thread:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...-holds-up.html
For honing it, I dialed in a correct bevel on a Coticule with slurry, did the diluting slurry cycle that I always try after the bevel stage on a Coticule, and found the razor not ready. Refined the bevel on the Chosera 5K and next on the 10K. Finished on the Coticule with water. Shaved like a dream.

In your case, having only one Coticule, I would add 100 laps on water after the duluting stage, strop 60 on linen and 60 on leather and stest shave. If not pleased, I'd add 2 layers of tape and cut a 2nd bevel with 30 extremely light laps on the Coticule with water.
Remove tape, strop on linen and leather again and test shave.

It would surprise me is not one of those two methods gave me a very decent edge. Maybe not as keen as what I can achieve with the Cosera's included, but neverthless a nice and certainly very smooth edge.

Good luck,
Bart.

Bart,

I remember the thread, "I Want A SHarp Razor That Holds Up" too well, and I think I even PM'd you on that one.

Anyway, thanks for the advice mate. If you weren't so far away I'd buy you a case of beer , but my gratitude will have to be enough for now.

PS - You've probably had it with foreigners talking about Stella Artois all the time; is there another Belgian beer you could recommend?

Regards,

Ryan

Originally Posted by Ryan82

PS - You've probably had it with foreigners talking about Stella Artois all the time; is there another Belgian beer you could recommend?

Among beer aficionados in Belgium you'll find very little sympathy for the Belgo-Brazilian multinational Imbev, that brews Stella Artois, and also owns Anheuser-Bush. They do produce beverages and call it "beer", but one can hardly call it brewing what they do. Long story.
If you would like to enjoy real Belgian beers, here's a short list of excellent beers that you should be able to buy across the pond:

-Chimay, preferably blue label or large botlles black label.
-Chouffe, several great beers from the Ardens region. La Chouffe Blonde is the flagship.
-Liefmans Goudenband "Gold Ribbon", now owned by Duvel-Moortgat.
-Westmalle Tripel, probably the best tripel you'll ever taste.
-Celis White, if you want to taste an authentic wheat beer, brewed in Austin, Texas founded by the Belgian brewmaster Pierre Celis.
-Rochefort, preferably the 8° and the 10°
-everything from Brasserie Dupont.
-"3 Fonteinen" Old Geuze, or any other traditional style Geuze for that matter.

They all taste well while honing razors.

Bart.

Well, I had a "day off" work today so I thought I'd use my time off to try my hand at honing up my Friodur. This is what I did:

My razor has a scalloped spine (or ridged, whatever you prefer) so I used one layer of tape for protection and better glide. Did the MMT and gave it a few laps on my 6x2 coticule with water only. The marker was removed along the entire edge, so I went straight to Bart's diluted slurry method. I raised a slurry and did the prerequiste 100 laps, diluting after every 10. Shaved arm hair a bit better after that. So I did another 100 laps with water only (forgot to mention dish soap was added to my water during the entire process), then took it to the strop. 60 linen and 60 leather, then took it to my thick leg hairs. I will say there was a definite improvement from when I tried to shave with that razor last week. I even tried a small patch on my face (dry) and this time it even severed a whisker or two ; another improvement. I did have a few observations:

-During the MMT it seemed that, even though the marker honed off along the tip of the bevel on both sides, the marker seemed to remain on one side of the edge a lot longer than the other side. I do not know if this is an issue with the bevel itself, my honing stroke or both.

-While raising the slurry, my slurry stone seemed to stick occasionally. I don't know if this is normal. But after a couple minutes of slurry raising all I got was a very thin inconsistent slurry, nothing like the thick milky type I see in Bart's pictures. I didn't really notice much greying of the slurry either. I suspect that my coticule is quite hard. I also do not know if this affected the performance.

-After everything was said and done I also suspect that my blade is sharper in some sections than others. The middle is definitely the sharpest.

So, after all that my first true honing at least wasn't a complete failure. This razor is not a good type to learn honing with (the custom scales are 6 1/2"and are loose, the razor is 11" fully open; quite difficult to maintain flat on the hone at all times). What do you guys think I should do next? Start another cycle? Add more tape?

Thanks,

Ryan

[quote=Ryan82;352518]Well, I had a "day off" work today so I thought I'd use my time off to try my hand at honing up my Friodur. This is what I did:

My razor has a scalloped spine (or ridged, whatever you prefer) so I used one layer of tape for protection and better glide. Did the MMT and gave it a few laps on my 6x2 coticule with water only. The marker was removed along the entire edge, so I went straight to Bart's diluted slurry method.
Sounds good. If you started out with a complete bevel, there's no need for prolonged slurry honing. I would normally recommend doing a bit of slurry work anyway, in case the bevel wasn't fully extending all the way, but I don't think your particular Coticule is up to that job. So let's hope the bevel was good to start with.
I raised a slurry and did the prerequiste 100 laps, diluting after every 10. Shaved arm hair a bit better after that. So I did another 100 laps with water only (forgot to mention dish soap was added to my water during the entire process), then took it to the strop. 60 linen and 60 leather, then took it to my thick leg hairs.
What is it with you Canooks, that you have to shave leg hairs instead of arm hairs??? Now I have to imagine you sitting at the hones, with your pants down. I sure hope your wife doesn't catch you in the middle of the night in such a pose...
I will say there was a definite improvement from when I tried to shave with that razor last week. I even tried a small patch on my face (dry) and this time it even severed a whisker or two ; another improvement. I did have a few observations:

-During the MMT it seemed that, even though the marker honed off along the tip of the bevel on both sides, the marker seemed to remain on one side of the edge a lot longer than the other side. I do not know if this is an issue with the bevel itself, my honing stroke or both.
Be sure to use a permanent marker and let it dry a minute. Degrease the blade if you previously had oil on it. Otherwise the MMT can give false readings. DAMHiKT.

-While raising the slurry, my slurry stone seemed to stick occasionally. I don't know if this is normal.
Yes, this is normal.
But after a couple minutes of slurry raising all I got was a very thin inconsistent slurry, nothing like the thick milky type I see in Bart's pictures. I didn't really notice much greying of the slurry either. I suspect that my coticule is quite hard. I also do not know if this affected the performance.
You clearly have a slow Coticule. It'll be a great polisher, but not a very fast stone to do much bevel correction. You can produce more slurry if you use a good quality sandpaper or a DMT-C on the dry Cotcicule, to create a layer of Coticule dust. Next add a few drops of water and use the slurry stone to rubbingly mix it to the desired density. But still, the Coticule will be a slow performer, because the slurry isn't able to abrade the hard binder and release fresh garnets while honing. (For honing kitchen knifes and chisels, where you can apply more pressure, this is less of a problem and the hone will be faster for these purposes)

-After everything was said and done I also suspect that my blade is sharper in some sections than others. The middle is definitely the sharpest.

So, after all that my first true honing at least wasn't a complete failure. This razor is not a good type to learn honing with (the custom scales are 6 1/2"and are loose, the razor is 11" fully open; quite difficult to maintain flat on the hone at all times). What do you guys think I should do next? Start another cycle? Add more tape?
I recommend starting a new cycle. Maybe try the trick for a better slurry. Take your time diluting.
If the results don't improve, add a layer of tape and do 100 laps on water only. Test again. If the results max out and the razor shaves decent during a test shave, but just a tad below where you want it, try 10-15 laps on your new CrO strop.

Good Luck,
Bart.