Thread: Coticule dulling razor?

by the way i find my bevel shinier of 8k n but i don't think .but the shave of my yellow is much smoother.

I don't have much experience, but I will say that an edge off of a coticle with water seems to just cut whiskers slower. It will smooth out an edge, but it won't be as sharp as other, higher grit stones. You might find that the hair test will be restored after stropping after finishing with the yellow coticle. Something I have tried once or twice recently was using the coticle dry. I got good results so far, but I am not sure if that was a direct result of using the hone dry or not.

I would suggest moving to a Shapton 16k. I think you'll find, as I have, that you'll get a sharper blade, it will get that way more consistently and repeatedly than any other stone I use. It's not as romantic as using a belgian and god knows I DO love my natural hones but for some reason it's not working out for you. Problem could also be with your strop or stropping.

When I first started using my coticules I noticed the same "dulling my razors...WTF?!?" phenomenon.

For me, there is a learning curve with any new hone, and if you haven't used a coticule before they take some adjustments in technique before getting those appropriately sharp edges.

Try taking your coticule and using it under slowly running water perhaps? Maybe you have one of the coarser coti's.


Since you state in your first post you can get good edges, I will assume it's not your honing stroke or anything like that.

Stick with it. I found it took a lot of learning and trialling with coticules. I have a nice wide bbw, and same size (softer) coti, and a natural combo 4x2. They are very different in behaviour I find. But once you 'get' them, then you'll be set. I have spent hours and hours trying this, trying that, and I think I finally have them nailed. The 4x2 natural combo was my first hone and I gave up on it as a newb for a couple of years. After buying separate bbw and coti, and figuring those out, I took the old combo out of a drawer and gave it another go. It's a harder stone than the larger cot, and I finally figured it out.

Until then, I was also confused by the "it seems to dull my blade" issue. In my case, this was because:

[1] My technique was off (by which I mean not just the hand movement and keeping blade flat, but also how I used the stones themselves, in which situations, on different blades).
[2] I mistook 'smoother' for 'duller'. You can get hairs to pop off a coti, but even when the HHT fails off a coti, I realised the shave was just as close, but smootherand much less harsh than coming off diamond paste, for instance.

Stick with it, practice, practice, practice, and I'm betting you'll be getting some serious edges to your blades soon enough.

I would recommend trying only 10 or 15 strokes and then going to the chromium. 30 up to a hundred strokes is way too much in my opinion.

Have fun,

Lynn

I think there was only one hone that has worked for me perfectly on the first try (that was the very first one and a touch-up job). I normally expect to get 5 razors through a hone before I know how to use it. Even with my last acquisition the naniwas two weeks ago.
Once I get to use it for a bit it seems to work as advertised.

we are so confusing let me confuse you a little more.
Do you have some kind a microscope or loop you can use and see at least 60x times.Radioshack has it for a 10 $. if yes check the edge after using coticule see what it does. i think you may have a coticule meant to for chizels etc fast cutting and lower grit quality.Sorry

Here's my take on the story.

Some hones create microscopic teeth and other's don't. The DMT-E is just one example of a hone that creates a sawtooth pattern rather obviously.

Just like a serrated knife cuts tomatoes with ease, a micro-serrated razor's edge also cuts (hanging) hairs very easily. This happens because all cutting force it delivered at the spikes that touch the hair, which makes it easier to make the penetration prior to severing the hair.
The big downside is, that those edges are not very friendly to the skin. This is an understatement.

Edges without teeth, need to be keener to offer the same performance. If you use a Coticule with water to smooth out an edge, you will loose whatever was contributed by that edge's "toothiness", and are left with only the naked keenness.

As a result, finishing edges on a Coticule with water that were already very keen and toothless will cause no noticeable "dulling", and will only introduce the lustrous Coticule-smoothness and feel to the edge. On the other hand, finishing edges that rely on teeth for their performance, will cause a fall back of that performance.

I agree with the statements that it will take some time before you can figure out how you can combine your honing skills with the hones you own, into the edges you like best.
As for one suggestion: for better results off the Coticule with water, I would try doing more laps on the Norton 8K before going to the Coticule. I feel the Coticule approach, at least the way I manage to get it working, takes more laps than other honing methods.

Bart.

Thanks for your insight everyone.

A couple updates. So over the weekend, I took the blade that was pulling (the one straight off the coticule that I thought was dulled), and went back through BBW with slurry, 50 with slurry, then 50 gradually watering it down, then coticule with water, again, about 90-100 laps. I then went to the chinese 12k with water only for 100 laps. The resultant shave was better than straight off the coticule.

I then decided maybe I didn't give the coticule a fair shake. So I went back to the BBW with slurry again, back to coticule with water, this time taking care to do extra strokes and extra good technique. I had the same results on the coticule - seems to make the edge less sharp. I tried again to shave with it, and again, it was pulling way moer than I like. That is, it felt OK on the face, but took effort to make it through the whiskers. I don't like that feeling, and I know I can elminiate it at least by going to the chinese 12k. Mid shave I did 20 strokes on chromium oxide, and this made a noticeable improvement.

So, after not being satisfied with that edge, and reading dups' thread where he seems to have a similar problem with his coticule, and seemed to solve it by setting the bevel, adding tape, setting bevel again and then sharpening, I decided to try this. Even though in his case he had a big bevel and in my case, I have a very very tiny bevel. But all the same I tried it. Went back to the DMT 1200 without tape, set the bevel again (didn't take long at all - was already basically still set), then added one layer of tape, set the bevel again on the DMT 1200, took it to the BBW with slurry for IIRC 75 laps (until it stopped getting sharper). I had high hopes at this point, because coming off the BBW with slurry, I was REALLY liking the edge. It was very sharp, but also seemed pretty smooth. I liked the edge here better than coming off the norton 4k. I then took to the coticule with water only. After 30 laps, the great sharpness was starting to fade and I was right back to the feeling I've been getting on the coticule I did another 80 laps for a total of 110 with water only, and I just wasn't satisfied with the edge at this point. After using the coticule (and this is every time I've used it, not just this time), the edge on the TPT basically goes from super sticky such that I can't run my thumb pad across any part of it even with the lightest pressure, to not so sticky to the point that I could lightly run my thumb pad the length of the blade and not get cut. Any pressure would cut me for sure, so it's still sharp, just doesn't seem AS sharp because previous to the coticule even as light as I could go would cut right into me after a quarter inch. Anyway, I ended up taking it to the chinese 12k for 100 laps or so until the bevel was nicely polished, and shaved with it this morning. The shave was OK, but was improved again midshave by 20 laps on my chromium oxide hanging strop.

I plan to keep experimenting with this razor and my hones to find the best combo for it. So far, I think the best edge I've had on it is after using the 12k. It doesn't seem to make a difference in feel if I used the norton 4k/8k before the chinese 12k or if I used the bbw/coticule. Seems to be the same end result. I've shaved with other razors straight off the norton 8k and had great results, but I have yet to try it with this particular razor, so I think that might be my next step, to compare the feel to the shave straight off the coticule, on this exact razor. I also need to do a better job of watching the transition from BBW with slurry to coticule with my scope. I'm usually so excited to give the coticule another go that I start without checking it first. I can say, for sure, that the chinese 12k definitely polishes the edge the coticule leaves noticeably under magnification.

At this point, I'm not sure if I've got a bum coticule, or if the way the coticule changes the edge is actually for the better and I just can't tell that yet with my tests. If that's the case, though, I don't know why my test shaves don't confirm it. If the shave test is the end-all, then I have to say, with this particular razor, I really don't like shaves straight off the coticule. My next step after trying a shave off the norton 8k will probably be trying another razor straight off the coticule. Is it possible I'm just spoiled by the chinese 12k (all edges I've used previously have been finished on the chinese 12k AND chromium oxide)? Does anyone actually PREFER the coticule finish to a higher grit polisher and/or paste? I mean, I can get through a shave straight off the coticule, but I in no way prefer it. I'm really only doing it for the sake of testing the coticule as I've heard of others shaving straight off it.