Thread: Coticule dulling razor?

I started honing like your self 4k 8k 12k kitiyama with good shaves but heard so much a bout belgiums so i have now bbw/coti combo and seperate bbw and select coti my combo coti is small kosher.And i have done same methoid as you and to be fair the smoothness was a lot better than my norton , kitiyama 12k. The shave seemed a lot better wheather its a bit decieving because felt much smoother.But i have to say i do love them and like the feedback with slurry. I found the yellow with slurry dulled my razor so much it would'nt shave but 100 laps on water did refine it back to shaving and more so with the bbw coti method.Your coticule is it producing slight slurry as your honing by any chance even still if it is its only going to be fine and that should'nt matter to much. I have just had a chineese 12k for 2 weeks now and i have to say i have used this after my coticule with water and the ch12k to me feels much more silkier and i am realy surprised and i reckon its as good if not better when i have used it shaved of it mid shave i added 20 laps on ch.5 oxide and it diid'nt make any differance reason why ch12k realy does the job i can also say the same about my yellow coti but i think the ch12k is as good if not better but to early to say at least ch12k is not inconsistant like coti i read so much about coticule dulling razors with slurry with out slurry it gets a bit confusing. to me it sound like your yellow is not polishing very well i wonder if it cuts realy quik it might be usful for that.

That's an interesting post, Pjrage.

I have never used a Chinese 12K, so I can't comment on that one.

What I know about Coticules is this:
The vast majority of them are excellent finishers when you use them with water. They can add a very unique feel and smoothness to a wide variety of edges, without offering much extra keenness, but also without taking any away, even on very sharp edges. Used with water, a coticule really is an extremely slow polisher. Based on what I read on the forum, presumably even slower than the Chinese 12K, that at least seems capable of refining an edge to greater sharpness within 100 laps or so. On an edge that really lacks keenness 100 laps on a Coticule with water will not deal with that.

Using slurry on a Coticule changes things very dramatically. It becomes a pretty fast hone in that mode. But there's a downside. The slurry will affect the very tip of the edge, introducing a barrier of maximum keenness. Lighter slurry will partially deal with this, but if you make it too light the stone will slow down again, and stops refining the edge. This is the big challenge for those who wish to hone their razors on nothing but a Coticule.

There is one exception that I know of, that can cause a Coticule to perform differently:
Some Coticules create slurry, just by honing on it. Those are generally not good finishers, cause they tend to introduce the aforementioned keenness barrier also when used with water. If you hone long enough on them (100 laps) they will slowly reduce the keenness to the barrier level. It is fairly obvious to notice, when your Coticule shows that behavior. Those hones are generally lightning fast and make incredible bevel setters.

Also the Blue introduces it's own keenness barrier when used with slurry. This barrier is keener than what you get with a similar slurry on a Coticule, albeit the Blue is much slower. In general, the Blue offers good keenness to make a razor shaveready. If you however are taking a keener razor to the Blue with slurry, it will reset the keenness to its own realm.

At this moment, it is unclear to me if the reduction in keenness you experience after the Chinese 12K is caused by the Blue with slurry or by a Coticule with "auto-slurry" behavior.
You should try finishing the Chinese 12K edge on your Coticule with water. Knowing that there are guys that finish a Shapton 16K edge on a Coticule, and knowing that I prefer to finish my Naniwa Chosera 10K edges on a Coticule, I would be very interested in learning if you like the bare 12K edge over the Coticule finished edge, or vice versa. In any case, I am convinced that the majority of Coticules would not reduce the keenness of the 12K. For this purpose it does not take more than 20-30 laps on the Coticule with water to imply its unique features on the 12K edge. If your Coticule is responsible for dulling your edges, you'll know it immediately if you try finishing a Chinese 12K edge that was previously performing very well during a test shave.

As long as you are running these test I would refrain from using CrO. It convexes the edge and has the ability to obscure all honing results.

The method for keeping the bevel narrow, that I explained in Dups' thread, makes to sense on a already narrow bevel. It's a waist of time and a waist of steel in this case.

To answer your final question: the majority of razors I personally shave with, and also the majority of razors I send out, are finished on a Coticule. I own a small collection of them and there's only one that I wouldn't use for finishing.

Best regards,
Bart.

Even if this particular coticule in question cuts particularly fast, according to everywhere I've read, coticules and BBWs don't overhone, they just level off in sharpness, so I don't understand why it would matter how fast it cuts, unless it cuts very slow and I wasn't doing enough laps? I mean, say it's so fast that it achieves the best edge it ever will in 15 laps, even if I do 100, if the sharpness has just leveled off, sure I've done 85 extra and unnecessary laps, but shouldn't the end result be the same with the 15 or the 100?

Also, on the topic of laps, hone size must play in somewhere, right? When I say I'm doing 100 laps on my coticule with water, remember it's a 4x2, so, whatever that's worth. Realistically, I guess I'm only using just under 3" of it, because of the blade with of the razor (5/8") needing to stay on the hone. Similar to using 7" on an 8" hone, or 5" on a 6" hone. So, in that respect, 100 laps on a 4x2 is probably more like 60 laps on a 6x2 or ~43 laps on an 8x2. This would probably change even more if you start talking about a wider stone as well as longer. Maybe I'll try even more laps tonight and see what that helps

The wiki guide says to do ~100 laps on the coticule with water, but I'm not sure what size hone that refers to. Even if it's 6x2, that would mean I'd need to do 166 laps on my 4x2, right? (5" usable for 6x2 / 3" usable for 4x2) = 5/3 * 100 laps = 166.67. If the wiki guide is referring to 100 laps on an 8x2, I'd be looking at 233 laps on mine! Maybe I'm just not even doing close to enough laps on my smaller stone? I guess that still doesn't explain why my edge seems duller even after 100 laps, but maybe it could explain something?

Whoops, looks like I was writing while you were posting, Bart. I missed your post before I posted my last one...

In any case, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts that I raised on the number of laps for various sized hones in my previous post just now.

But to address some points you raised... That's interesting to hear that people go from their higher grits to the coticule. I'd be curious to try finishing my 12k edge on the coticule. I'll get back to you on this one.

Regarding test shaves, I do try to refrain from chromium oxide at the start. Every shave I've done so far with this testing has started without it and about halfway through the first pass I stop and hit it to improve the edge. This way I can tell the differences in hones, but also the change(s) the chromium oxide gives to the same edge.

Regarding the "auto-slurry" coticules, I did think of this, and when I honed on the coticule last night, I do so holding the stone in my hand, in the sink, under a constant stream of water. I did my 110 laps this way. I actually found it kind of nice, because the extra water helped to suction the blade to the stone which ensured lighter laps and better/easier blade/stone contact. After honing this way, I didn't notice any discernable difference on the edge with TPT or leg/arm shaving (still seemed to have been dulled slightly) vs honing by just spraying fresh water every 10-15 laps. But I didn't shave my face with it after honing this way, as I went straight to the 12k.

I'm hoping to do a little more testing on this coticule, but I fear I'm going to end up having no choice but to buy another to try and see if I get the same results

My hone is only 5x 1 and half inch i've often thought what your saying you have a good point it bart method and i think he uses 6x2 he will let you no i'm sure. The one thing i can say for sure becauase its happend to me when i honed on yellow with to much slurry it realy did dull my razor with thin slurry it did'nt have that efect at all why yours is having that efect with just water is beond me somthing is not right with that coticule its apitty you don't no some one who could borrow you theres and see if you get a good result if so then you no the one you have is not good where did you get it from

You should try shaving of bbw and see what you think

Originally Posted by pjrage

Even if this particular coticule in question cuts particularly fast, according to everywhere I've read, coticules and BBWs don't overhone, they just level off in sharpness, so I don't understand why it would matter how fast it cuts, unless it cuts very slow and I wasn't doing enough laps? I mean, say it's so fast that it achieves the best edge it ever will in 15 laps, even if I do 100, if the sharpness has just leveled off, sure I've done 85 extra and unnecessary laps, but shouldn't the end result be the same with the 15 or the 100?

The maxing out of the sharpness only refers to the use of slurry.
The slurry removes steel from the bevel sides, which refines the tip with each stroke. At the same time, the tip collides with the slurry and undergoes abrasion from it. At a certain level, there's an equilibrium, the tip abrades as much as it's being sharpened. That's when it maxes out.

When used with water, there are no loose garnets to collide with the tip. The garnets remain embedded in the surface of the hone. It slowly eats scratches, but it won't cut much solid steel. There is no deterioration at the bevel tip, hence no maxing out, at least nowhere near what happens with the use of slurry.

Originally Posted by pjrage

Also, on the topic of laps, hone size must play in somewhere, right?

That's correct. Laps counts are always a rough estimate. You have to translate them to your own situation: the size of the hone matters, but also the width of the bevel (matters a lot), the pressure of your honing stroke, the steel of the razor, the specifics of the hone (it remains a piece of nature), the situation off the previous hone.
I'm not shy of mentioning lap counts, because I realize that without any idea, it's even harder to know what to do. I must be clear that lap counts are always just a pointer.

Bart.

Very interesting thread. I use the BBW followed by yellow coticule for most of my honing, with good results. Like pjrage, I notice that my razor seems sharper after the blue than after a few laps with the coticule. BUT, I would like to ask pjrage how he strops. My razors will seldom pass the HHT off the coticule, but as soon as I do 40 passes on linen, they do , and with ease. Then, I finish with 50 strokes on the leather. The hairs fall apart and float when I do the HHT after the leather. Have you tried stropping on linen first off the coticule, before going to leather? I get very smooth and pretty close shaves that way.

Originally Posted by Croaker

Very interesting thread. I use the BBW followed by yellow coticule for most of my honing, with good results. Like pjrage, I notice that my razor seems sharper after the blue than after a few laps with the coticule. BUT, I would like to ask pjrage how he strops. My razors will seldom pass the HHT off the coticule, but as soon as I do 40 passes on linen, they do , and with ease. Then, I finish with 50 strokes on the leather. The hairs fall apart and float when I do the HHT after the leather. Have you tried stropping on linen first off the coticule, before going to leather? I get very smooth and pretty close shaves that way.

Per the wiki, I haven't been hitting linen (smooth cotton in my case) straight after honing. Only between shaves. I usually hit the leather for 60-70 strokes after honing, and I do notice an improvement in sharpness. Although it still doesn't get as sharp as I think it should be (as sharp as after the 12k for example). I then hit the leather another 50-60 strokes before my morning shave, which has been ~8-10 hours later.

I know lap counts are always rough, but I do appreciate the rough estimate too. If you are on a 6x2 and doing roughly 100 passes the the coti with water, that would mean with my 4x2 @ 60% the size (3/5), I ought to be in the rough neighborhood of 167, so I'm going to look here to see what this helps too.

Bart, thanks for clarifying the leveling off of the coticule/bbw. So, this only applies to using a slurry? Can you overhone with water only, then?

Thanks again for keeping up with me and for the input though everyone. I've got a few more ideas to try now which will take a couple days. I'll keep everyone posted.

I think the overall consensus is that it's almost impossible to overhone on the coticule.