Thread: Stone Size As It Affects Honing Technique

The basic concept, but the heel should be leading the point a bit:

I love that depiction. It is all over the proper stroke. I use mine on a table. Never the lap or held as on the table, I am assured of absolutely no extra motion or or angle. Lynn

Do you folks all lift the razor from the hone before the return stroke (as pictured) or do you roll it over on the spine, with the spine being in contact 100% of the time, as in stropping? I lift my razor off the hone, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't gain some speed and accuracy by leaving the spine on the hone. Just never wanted to put any wear or scratches on the top of the spine that I didn't have to.

I've never in my life honed on a table or set surface. Always, hone is cradled in my hand. To me, it increases the feel, but after trying to teach a lot of different people how to hone, it's obvious that honing isn't an easy thing for a lot of people. I've been honing since I was 12 years old and found out what a little tiny pocket-sized Arksansa Wichita hard stone would do for my pocket knife. I believe properly honing a knife is much more difficult for the average guy than a razor because the razors have a built-in angle guide so at least that variable is removed.

I believe that an X-Pattern does several things that are important when honing (depending on what you're trying to accomplish). It gives you more edge to hone contact with each stroke. Learn to sharpen an 8 inch butcher knife on a 4X2" hone and it really illustrates the value of this. It allows even honing of the entire blade. And most important, as far as razors are concerned, is it creates a finer, smoother edge or fin.

Every hone leaves microserrations even if they're much too fine to see. Serrations make an excellent slicing edge, but that's what we try to avoid creating on our razors that we want to push-cut hair and not cleanly slice off layers of skin. A straight draw on a hone creates microserrations that are perpindicular to the blade. This gives these serrations the maximum amount of hill and valley. i.e. biggest serraions possible for a given grit. When the draw is angled, the serrations are also at an angle, reducing the "wave length" of the serrations and minimizing their prominence.

Additionally, this creates the small lans and grooves, striations, hone pattern - however you would like to think of it, at an angle that will be quickly polished down by stropping. A mill file "cuts" because the grooves are at an angle, providing a lot of friction. For what we're doing, it's a similar principle except that instead of desiring those very "grooves" we've just honed into the blade to wear away the strop, we use the strop to wear away the grooves.

mi dos centavos

Originally Posted by string

Do you folks all lift the razor from the hone before the return stroke (as pictured) or do you roll it over on the spine, with the spine being in contact 100% of the time, as in stropping? I lift my razor off the hone, but I'm not sure that I wouldn't gain some speed and accuracy by leaving the spine on the hone. Just never wanted to put any wear or scratches on the top of the spine that I didn't have to.

OK .... The razor finishes each stroke low on the hone, and needs to be turned around and high on the hone in preparation for the return stoke in the X-pattern cycle. So how to get there?

The safest flip is one where the edge is revolved aroung the axis of the back (spine) away from the stone ..... Raising the razor, to flip it with the edge down, is risking raking the edge over the stone at a really ruinous angle at some sooner-or-later moment of brain-fade.

Raising the razor to flip it with the edge AWAY from the stone is OK. But, when returning the razor to contact with the stone, the back MUST touch the stone before the edge! We're talking about honing here. On the leather strop, I'd recommend leaving the razor in contact with the leather continuously. Again, on the leather, flip the edge AWAY from the surface when preparing for the return stroke.

For a highly instructive and excellent resource on how to use classic barber hones, check out the video by the master barber, Greg Ives, _The Lost Art of Straight Razor Shaving_. It's available at John West's website:
http://www.users.mis.net/rebel23/wwwpages/

Hal

Great information guys, but you still didn't answer my question. Do you folks leave the spine touching the stone when you flip it, or do you lift the spine off the stone? What I actually do is a modified X pattern where I hone one side for a given number of strokes depending on which stone I am using, lifting the blade from the stone and returning it to the starting point. I then put the blade back down gently, side of spine touching first. I normally do 6 to 10 strokes on one side, then 6 to 10 strokes on the other, reducing as I approach the final finishing strokes. Always matching number of strokes on each side of the blade. So I only have to flip the blade once every 10 to 20 strokes. I think this way also provides for me a better feel of the blade edge on the stone, as each stroke compares the same edge of the blade, as against first feeling one edge on the stone, then the opposite edge. But that's just me.

string, check out the Xpattern honing animation i put last night in the HelpFiles/Videos.

It is the spf_Xhone.pdf file, the first one.

D/l, change the extension from spf_Xhone.pdf to spf_Xhone.avi


You are doing it wrong. The strokes should alternate, one from one side, the second from the other side etc. Your modified Xpattern should develop the wire edge. If that was the right way, we were all doing it, since it is easier

string, as for your question, David's answer is perfect:

The safest flip is one where the edge is revolved aroung the axis of the back (spine) away from the stone ..... Raising the razor, to flip it with the edge down, is risking raking the edge over the stone at a really ruinous angle at some sooner-or-later moment of brain-fade.

I personaly lift the razor from the stone, carefuly.

Dont worry about the scratches on the spine, they should polish while stroping, given that you hone 1-4 times a year, and strop every day. I have no experience on polishing spine hone scratches, maybe some can confirm this.?

Yes, Superfly, it is easier. So the question I have is why isn't everyone else doing it? LOL
Actually, it does not cause a wire edge any more than the standard X pattern, alternating on each stroke, in my opinion. I just tested a couple of edges under a 20X loupe, ( couldn't find my radioshack microscope at the moment) and the edges were clean and clear with no wire edge. But then, I don't use course grits on my stones. Belgian coticule for basic honing and sometimes edge finishing, or Arkansas translucent or 50 year old black arkansas stone for final polishing. Very few if any members here use arkansas stones either, but they work well for me.
I would appreciate an information on why what I am doing is not the best, but so far it simply works and works well. The only difference I could imagine happening is that by alternating, you would tend to remove the wire edge as it develops with alternate stroke honing, where as in modified X, you would remove it all at once with several strokes on one side of the blade. But in all honesty, I have never been able to either see or feel a wire edge on any of the blades I have tested for it.
I looked for the honing file you mentioned, but can't find any video files or links. I even checked at the old site. Sorry, couldn't find it.