Thread: Yet, another Black Surgical question

Very cool site!
What a variety they have! Even big ones.

That they go by density instead of grit is something new to me but does make sense.


Hardness for Novaculite is unavailable,
but for Quarz it is 7
whereas Korund is 9 and
Diamond is 10

What I have learned from this interesting thread is that I have been thinking of grit and hardness of a hone interchangeably, when actually they are not at all the same thing. A fine grit hone will polish a razor edge well. A very hard hone will do so also, although possibly much more slowly. Novaculite is extremely hard, with a MOH hardness of 7. (just looked it up in a chemical company reference manual). That means that a surgical Black Arkansas hone has the same hardness as if it was made out of solid garnet. Wow! Unfortunately, it is a slow polisher and does not really remove metal at all, in my experience. I just honed a razor that was not passing the HHT on my black Arkansas, until it would pass the HHT off the hone.I t took about 200 passes. I then stropped it 50 on linen and 50 on leather. Tomorrow, I plan to shave with it and see if the edge is appreciably better than usual for that razor.

As far as novaculite is concerned, I think the hardness is related to the grit. The harder the stone, the higher the grit. As all arkansas stones are made of the same material, the density is the big difference between them. That's probably why you couldn't find a definitive value for the hardness.

Originally Posted by Croaker

What I have learned from this interesting thread is that I have been thinking of grit and hardness of a hone interchangeably, when actually they are not at all the same thing. A fine grit hone will polish a razor edge well. A very hard hone will do so also, although possibly much more slowly. Novaculite is extremely hard, with a MOH hardness of 7. (just looked it up in a chemical company reference manual). That means that a surgical Black Arkansas hone has the same hardness as if it was made out of solid garnet. Wow! Unfortunately, it is a slow polisher and does not really remove metal at all, in my experience. I just honed a razor that was not passing the HHT on my black Arkansas, until it would pass the HHT off the hone.I t took about 200 passes. I then stropped it 50 on linen and 50 on leather. Tomorrow, I plan to shave with it and see if the edge is appreciably better than usual for that razor.

Hey Croaker, thanks for this info. Thanks much to the rest of you fine people. I was actually worried that this post would result in series of potential flame replies just because it has been asked before in previous posts (searched).

Croaker, let me know for sure either PM or better yet, re-post here. If you get good results, then I wonder if I can just get the Belgium Coti (to go with my Belgium beer!), and a slurry stone, then finalize on the black, then linen, then strop. Or would hitting the black be overkill? Dunno. I am stoked though.

Thanks,

Alpsman

I have an Arkansas Translucent and all I can say, which has already been said, is that it is way slow. Somewhat unpredictable as well. I don't know if it's going to take 50 strokes or 100 or 150 to get the polish and result I need on a given razor. I put about 50 razors to the test on this a few years ago and started off with just 10 strokes. Silly me. Don't try to lap one of these with any kind of diamond product.......

Have fun,

Lynn

I kind of like the white translucent (as will be evident from earlier posts) - 50 to 75 laps after a thuringian seemed to do it most times for me. I have had experience of the black as well, and IMHO the white translucent is a finer stone. What Lynn says about not honing these on a diamond plate is right - it really took the life out of my DMT 325 and left it more like a 600!

Regards,
Neil

Alpsman wrote:
> I just want to stay ahead on edge maintenance on a newly honed DOVO, not create a new bevel. Can I use this stone with confidence (although slow), then linen, then leather to "touch up" the razor once a month or two?

Yes; that should work just fine. That's what I do. :-)

It's probably because of my inexperience with razor honing and years of using them for knives in general, but I sort of like the slowness of Arkansas stones. They seem to protect better against the occasional error in technique than the faster cutters do.

Yes - you guys aren't kidding about lapping them with diamond plates - I smoothed out a coarse diamond sharpener prettly handily doing that also.

Lynn - Do synthetic stones show more consistent numbers of honing strokes across various razors/steels than the Arkansas stones? That's really interesting; I wonder why that is so? Because of their faster cutting action?

Thanks,
Jeff

Originally Posted by JeffR

Alpsman wrote:
Lynn - Do synthetic stones show more consistent numbers of honing strokes across various razors/steels than the Arkansas stones? That's really interesting; I wonder why that is so? Because of their faster cutting action?

i know this question is aimed at lynn but i wanted to add my 2 cents, but whatever lynn says please listen to him over me.

synth stones are man made. you always know what your getting. i can take my naniwa 12k stone (thats on its way ;]) use it, then go out get another naniwa 12k and it works the same, no change in quailty, no questioning "is this really the right stone for this application"

i sharpen chisels with the dmt d6 line and everytime i go to sharpen the chisel i know what to expect. same with razors. its a constant. there is very little variance in it.

the natural stone guys will talk about zen and how synth hones are boring, but thats coool because thats what they get out of honing. me, i dont have $120 to spend on an hone and hope its gonna do what i want.

i just ordered the naniwa 12k as a finishing stone. i was told by a special someone that it rivals the shapton 16k for less money. give it a shot. you seem like you know what your doing, you hone knives. try it out see what you think. if you dont like it, sell it on here, that stone would sell faster than audrey hepburn's ass on a street corner (i have a think for audrey hepburn, shes my dream woman ;])

unlike Senor D I like natural stones

a nice natural stone is like a exceptional stock on a rifle

I have plastic stocks but I've never fallen in love with one of them

or like picking wild blueberries and finding one the size of your thumb

if you find a monster in a store bought pack then it just set you back 4 regular size blueberries


my love of natural things brought me to translucent and a very very fine slick black arkansas

HOLY FREAKIN SLOW !!!!!
I sold them.
I MEAN SLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW

Saves you the most of your blade, hehehe
It helps a lot when your blade is well prepared.