Thread: A Good One

My first razor was pro honed 5 years a go it was a genco absalutly mint i struggled to shave with it first time and thought this aint sharp a bit more practice and a couple more shaves and it was mint shaver defanatly down to tecnique using right shaving angle and skin pulling movmant in the blade etc. alot of people like my self included go from shavette or double edge blades and compare straight away to straight razor and you just carn't do that they are totaly differant in every way by sound and feel whilst in use i remember my razors sounding real scrapy at first i though this aint sharp but then i thought old on its shaving and not pulling so it was just the singing sound threw me out now i love that sound.

Thank you for your defense and sorry about the chip on your shoulder. Gee I never would have noticed............

First, let me apologize to you for any perceived criticism or in anything you may have taken as offensive to you. Let me also recognize you for being a 28 year straight razor shaver and having the very best shaving technique in the world. This is great and I agree that if new people take the time to learn to shave properly, they will never shave with anything but a straight razor. I haven't seen a whole lot of shaving advices from you, but would really welcome all the sharing of your wonderful skills that feel comfortable parting with.

Don't remember ever criticizing the use of a Barbers Hone. Actually, I remember letting people know that most instructions on a Barbers Hone tell people to only use 4-6 strokes for maintenance of their razors. For this purpose Barbers Hones are fine. If you really want to learn to hone and have a razor in need of more than a refreshing, the barber hones in my opinion are not the right tool. I have seen folks buy ebay razors and spend months trying to hone them on a Barber Hone only to end up frustrated and giving up.

I still heartily disagree with you that there is any additional maintenance required out of a razor honed to it's ultimate sharpness and again hope that new folks don't take that kind of advice to heart.

I do thankyou however, for this great topic of conversation.

With respect,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Chimensch

I am not a person who hones razors for others, but I am the author of the post that Lynn quotes, so I ought to have the right to defend myself.

Lynn has previously criticized me for saying that I shaved for 28 years with a Dovo stainless #41 that never saw anything but a barbers hone. He doesn't think that new users should read that kind of drivel either. Unfortunately for Lynn, it's the truth.

As for the subject at hand. I originally came to SRP in April 2008 because my barbers hone was temporarily lost and I didn't know how to replace it. I was fascinated to read about the great explosion taking place in razor honing technology and I decided to try some of the products out, starting with a Norton 4K/8K, then a Norton Flattening stone, a coticule bout, a 4-sided paddle strop with pastes (Dovo Red, Dovo Black, CrOx and 0.25 micron diamond), a BBW/Coticule combination, a Charnley Forest stone, a vintage coticule and a Honyama Awaseto with nagura stone. My point here is that I am not against new technology but I do like to try things for myself and then determine whether they work or not.

One of the things that happens when you shave for 28 years with a barbers hone is that you compensate for any shortcomings in the sharpness/smoothness of the blade by developing good technique. I'm not bragging when I say that I know as much about shaving technique as anyone here on the forum. Unfortunately, that type of information is more difficult to talk about and convey than honing technique. New users also need to learn good technique but that takes time.

Today, with all the new hones and pastes, we produce razors that are much sharper and smoother than anything our ancestors had to shave with. I'm not saying that this is in anyway bad, but it needs to be kept in perspective.

So, anyway, arriving here a year and a half ago, I jumped into the new technology with both feet. I like the edge off of CrOx, but I find that it doesn't last more than a shave or two before it drops off. That's my experience. Ideally, that's what this forum is about, everyone stating their experience.

So, having found that super-sharp, smooth edges are high maintenance, I went back to a process that, again IMO, is more sustainable. I have nothing against a sharp/smooth razor, but I think that technology has to be balanced with technique and that giving new shaver's the ultimate edge is like, and I'm struggling for the right simile here, teaching someone to ride a bike with 16 gears when what they really need is training wheels or teaching someone to drive in a Ferrari. As for honemeisters honing defensively, when you sharpen a razor for someone else, you have no control over their technique, so you make sure the razor is sharp. Unfortunately, the result is that new shavers think that the razor has to be that sharp to shave with and it doesn't.

Maybe all those years of shaving with a barbers hone have ruined me because, when I read about honing progressions that involve 4 or 5 hones and pastes, I just shake my head at the needless complexity of it all. What I want is simplicity that gives me a good shave and a razor that is easy to maintain.

OK I hate to say this but this thread is begining to really IRK me.... like that word????

So I am going to ask again, HOW DO YOU NOT SHARPEN A RAZOR AS MUCH??????

Fairly simple question guys because all I have seen you all talk about is the finishing stages of the process....

Which means that you are comparing Harshness -vs-Smoothness

Now if somebody says well Glen at the 4k level of my process I don't want the razor popping arm hair I want it not quite that sharp and at the 8k level I want to have to struggle to pop arm hair and when I shave I want to actually have to use a bit of pressure for the edge to cut my beard....
Do you see what I am saying here???

So are we actually comparing the finishing stage of the honing process here OR are you guys actually saying that you back off the sharpness in the 1k 4k 8k ranges (it doesn't matter the stone(s) you use) or the bevel set , sharpening, polishing stages....

I'll weigh in as someone new to straight shaving.

Maybe you wouldn't teach someone to drive in a Ferrari, but if I pay you for the best driving experience, I'd be a little insulted if you stuck me in a Pinto.

I almost find this analogy insulting to honemeisters but I'm trying to stick with the car theme; honemeisters are like professional detailers. You car can look good and run fine for its lifetime with a little TLC. The engine might not be spotless chrome and maybe you have some crumbs under your seat, but it still drives like a champ. If you want your car to look and run like it did on day 1, you can pay someone to do all of that. And if you do pay someone to do all of that, you should have high expectations.

Granted what a honemeister does is much more for function than aesthetics, but I hope you get my drift.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

So I am going to ask again, HOW DO YOU NOT SHARPEN A RAZOR AS MUCH??????

.

Glen i think conversation is about last stage of the honing. what is it coticule,norton k ,escher ,chinise etc etc doesn't matter.
if you do it too much example norton 8 k -150 laps you will end up over honed edge.
This is my understanding and hope this helps.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Glen i think conversation is about last stage of the honing. what is it coticule,norton k ,escher ,chinise etc etc doesn't matter.
if you do it too much example norton 8 k -150 laps you will end up over honed edge.
This is my understanding and hope this helps.

No Sham it doesn't help at all... I understand that, You understand that, Lynn understands that, ANYONE who hones razors understands that...

But somehow I can't get one of these guys who doesn't like "sharp razors" to explain to me what they are talking about

I get that you might not like a .25 diamond edge, or a Shapton 30k edge, or a Nakayama edge, I understand that completely, but that is not what is being said here....

If that is what they mean, then fine I understand that too, that finishing is a personal preference, or the honemiester's choice by experiance....

But to say an edge is "too sharp" does not make sense to me at all...

I used to have this idea of "Sharp vs Smooth" in my head.

Now i look back and it was really 2 things.

Crappy technique and crappy honing


With good technique a sharp blade is a smooth blade.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

No Sham it doesn't help at all... I understand that, You understand that, Lynn understands that, ANYONE who hones razors understands that...

But somehow I can't get one of these guys who doesn't like "sharp razors" to explain to me what they are talking about

I get that you might not like a .25 diamond edge, or a Shapton 30k edge, or a Nakayama edge, I understand that completely, but that is not what is being said here....

If that is what they mean, then fine I understand that too, that finishing is a personal preference, or the honemiester's choice by experiance....

But to say an edge is "too sharp" does not make sense to me at all...

G-Bro,

imo

Bad technique. Most people that will say they don't want or think an edge is to sharp is because they might have cut themselves, are afraid of cutting themselves (again), had a few bad shaves with burned sensation or harshness,...

all this because of bad technique.

With proper technique (shaving and prepping) and know how about your skin and beard type, one can take any super samurai honed edge and get the best shave of their lives. But we already knew that. They apparently not, yet.

The way I see it is there is sharp and than there is scary sharp. If I hone a razor on a coticule as sharp as I possibly can I will get a comfortable and smooth shave. If I take it to my 15k Shapton pro I can get it sharper. The shave might be as comfortable and smooth depending on my technique but the edge off of the coticule is more forgiving.

When I do the pyramid and stop at the 8k level and test shave there IMO is another example of not quite as sharp as when I go back to the 15k pro.

To draw another comparison that someone with a DE background may identify with a Feather is way sharper than a Derby. The Derby is more forgiving and less likely to leave weepers or to nick given proper technique. All this is of course my opinion based on my particular mug. YMMV.

This is an interesting thought.

I always think of it as new people who learn to hone hitting plateaus. As their skill increases, so does their results. All the guys I talk to who start off just wanting to learn to sharpen enough to be able to shave with their razors are always looking to improve their edges. I guess the bottom line is that the more razors you hone or the more you hone period, the better your shaves get. This is a good thing.

The work that most of the guys and gals who hone razors do for others helps to set the standards for those folks learning to hone and this is also a good thing. I believe this is the way most of us learned and continue to learn.

Thanks,

Lynn

Originally Posted by commiecat

I'll weigh in as someone new to straight shaving.

Maybe you wouldn't teach someone to drive in a Ferrari, but if I pay you for the best driving experience, I'd be a little insulted if you stuck me in a Pinto.

I almost find this analogy insulting to honemeisters but I'm trying to stick with the car theme; honemeisters are like professional detailers. You car can look good and run fine for its lifetime with a little TLC. The engine might not be spotless chrome and maybe you have some crumbs under your seat, but it still drives like a champ. If you want your car to look and run like it did on day 1, you can pay someone to do all of that. And if you do pay someone to do all of that, you should have high expectations.

Granted what a honemeister does is much more for function than aesthetics, but I hope you get my drift.