Thread: Options to improve keenness

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change .Or you can go head just use pastes cheapest solution.

I'm sure I can get great results with nortons, pastes, etc, but that isn't my question.

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

I played with the coticules untill i got the edge i was looking for. and they are apleasure to hone on especialy with slurry. Bart helped me out and i read his post and studied every thing he wrote. My best results .Was as follows yellow coticule very slowly diluting then 50 to even 100 on plain water getting extremly light on pressure i could pass hht after a good stroping i find you must do 50 linen then 50 leather. Also bbw milky slurry then coti water on a razor that did'nt need bevel tunning up gives great edge i never used paste on either because i did'nt need it i also added a ch12k to finish and that worked as well . I have had a thew pro honed razors and i have always added 50 bbw s then 50 yelloe coti and the shaves were better and smoother so for even touch ups i'd try 20 bbw s then yellow 30 and repeat if needed. Take yor time on yelloe dilute realy slowly i use bottled water and you will see a big differance in sharpness. Then after you can go bbws coti water and compare the differance on your next shave.

I got good results with secondry bevel but i prefer just one bevel as when it comes to touch ups it much more easy forc to get normal bevel back on track.

Why were on the subject it is said that the coticule with water only poilshes and is agreat finisher. So if i was to touch a razor up with coti water would that improve enough to have a keen edge.? my thinking is i have shaved of coti with slurry only and it shaves only just 100 laps on water and there is an improvemant quite a big one or using diluting method even better so the coti with water must sharpen a little ? is that right or not ?

Originally Posted by gary haywood

Why were on the subject it is said that the coticule with water only poilshes and is agreat finisher. So if i was to touch a razor up with coti water would that improve enough to have a keen edge.? my thinking is i have shaved of coti with slurry only and it shaves only just 100 laps on water and there is an improvemant quite a big one or using diluting method even better so the coti with water must sharpen a little ? is that right or not ?

In my experience, it largely depends on the particular specimen. Many Coticules are incredibly slow when use with water only. After they have eroded the peaks of the given scratch pattern, they have hardly any abrasive power to remove the steel required for further keenification. Other Coticules have more abrasive power, even when used with only water. Raising the slightiest hint of slurry on the former ones can make a big difference. Also, small variations in applied presure on the blade, can make a lot of difference. There is no subsitute for getting acquainted with the tool at hand.
The "unicot" method (the one that uses the secondary bevel) takes a shortcut around most of these differences, because the narrow secondary will respond well to low pressure laps on water, even on the slowest of Coticules.
I you don't like to use the secondary bevel shortcut, for whatever reason, than you need to figure out how your Coticule cuts best (something you obviously have done already). I have not been calling them "adventurous" hones for nothing.

Kind regards Gary,

Bart.

I did find that with my small kosher i took it to a dull razor with water only and i could feel the edge forming and i actualy said to my self this seems to be bringing edge back but i stopped and used another hone i wanted to try.

have you thought a bout gettig a 4knorton or maybe 5k naniwa to use before then bbwcoti i'm sure that would work. it has for me if you watch heavy dutys honing progression he goes 4k 8k bbw slurry yellow water. I 've done this many times and it realy works well infact it never failed yet

Well, I'm happy to report I hit my benchmark keenness with a single bevel, and using just the coticule to boot! This razor is pretty beefy-- it is a Livi regrind, 1/2 hollow. Despite good results on my full hollow using coti+slurry, BBW+slurry, coti+water, I was not able to get the Livi where I wanted it.

It took me awhile-- but I think I've figured out where I've been going south.

Bart, I followed your thinning schedule using the coticule only (no BBW), but I found that when I got past 20 laps, the slurry was thickening... and I was waiting too long before adding some water-- so I'd end up thinning the slurry, then it would thicken as I honed, then I would thin it out again. This didn't work... razor would not pop arm hair when held 1/4 above the skin (my keenness benchmark).

I stepped back to a thinner slurry, and would add a drop occasionally during the thinning schedule to try to keep the thickness constant (say I was at 40 laps before the next thinning-- I would add about 1 drop every 10 laps, until I got to 40, then I would thin by adding 2-3 drops, and start over). I got to where I thought the slurry was pretty thinned out, then switched to coticule+water only. Still no dice... it was sharper, I got a decent shave with it, but still didn't pass my keenness benchmark.

Third time around-- started with a medium slurry, added 2 drops of water every 10 laps. Every now and then I'd throw in an additional drop or two to keep the slurry well hydrated. Got to where I thought the slurry was pretty thinned out (and where I stopped last time), but this time I decided to JUST KEEP GOING. I must have added an additional 200 strokes, thinning and thinning and thinning every 10. Rinsed, then did 100 with just coticule + water, and BAM! Got it!

I'm real excited about this-- I started out this thread thinking I needed to add another hone on top of the BBW and Coti, now I'm down to 1 rock. I'm sure I ended up doing way more strokes than necessary, but now I know I can get to where I want to be.

Thanks for the tips!

-Chief

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

I understand skill plays role but if you don't have right tools you will not get result you like. example i give to you norton 4k and expecting from you make blade sharp as norton 8k edge? will you or anyone able to do so? of course not. it is just simple impossible. you can sit behind table for days your result will be similar 4k not 8k. You need to have better hone. That is simple . get Japan hones-nakayama or Escher and see how your edge 's keenness will change

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I *have* achieved excellent results with just BBW and Coticule. I'm just struggling to replicate it (I can even replicate it with a double bevel, but my original question was can I improve keenness without the double bevel). Based on this thread I've gotten 2 ideas to explore.

That is exactly what turned Coticule-honing into a mild obsession for me and lead to all the different experiments: the fantastic, yet originally elusive, results I got. I have been comparing these results to that off the Chosera 10K, and to that of my Nakayama. A few weeks ago, Seth (SRP-member Zethlent) was so kind to send one of his Nakayamas accross the globe, for me to play with. Seth had great results of this hone, and so have I. But nothing that would embarrass a good Coticule edge. They all deliver nice pull-free shaves. In my opinion, the differences reside in a narrow region of individual preference, dictated by beard- and skin-type, and personal shaving style. Getting the desired keenness off a Coticule takes a bit of a special approach, considering the versatility of the use with slurry.

I reject the idea that one needs a large troika of hones to sharpen a razor. There are many hones on today's market. Many of them are interchangeable.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

Relatively new to honing, I've rehoned my 3 razors, and sucessfully did a full bevel reset on a practice DA. I'm using BBW and Coticule. My progression is: Coticule + slurry to tune up the bevel, BBW + slurry, then coticule + water (per the wiki). My honing strokes are coming along, I can get the edge in nice condition per my magnifier. My benchmark is will the razor shave arm hair if held a bit above the skin. I can get to this benchmark if I use tape at the last coticlue+water stage which sets a secondary bevel. Without setting the secondary bevel, it is just shy of where I want the keeness to be (it will catch a few hairs this way. Will still shave ok, but more resistance on ATG than I want).

I'm wondering if there are other options to improve keeness aside from inducing a secondary bevel. I want to keep the BBW/Coticle as the primary honing tools, and I don't want to use paste. Is there a hone that could be used between the BBW and coticule or after the coticule that could help? Or any techique advice with BBW and coticule?

Note, my full hollow turned out real nice without the secondary bevel, but my 1/2 and 1/4 hollows are not quite there.

Thanks
-Chief

Originally Posted by BHChieftain

I'm not interested in comparing the edge I can get with BBW/Coticle with other hones, etc-- I'm interested in getting the maximum edge possible with these hones.

-Chief

??? this is your last response