Thread: Intentionally dulling a razor

Originally Posted by Lynn

I would be interested in the reasoning.

Slightly dulling a razor is something I have occasionally adviced, and I also do it myself. As I see it, it's a viable tactic when the state of the razor's bevel is suspect. "Suspect" can have several reasons: the condition of the razor might be unknown (send by someone, or bought second hand, previously taped with unknown tape thickness?). Or several touch-ups on a pasted strop could have introduced convexity on the bevel shape.
The idea is this: dull the razor in the slightest of ways (running it over a glass object, usually once). This brings the edge just below the point where it cuts arm hair. We know that the very edge won't gain any keenness before flat and fully developed bevel sides are reestablished. If there was no problem to start with, that takes very few laps on a dedicated bevel setter to get the razor shaving arm hair again.
If there indeed was a condition that needed correction, it will take exactly the time it was going to take for producing a complete and flat bevel in the first place.
I find that easy. No magic marker required, no second guessing of TPT readings. If you combine it with some magnification to spot for small damages along the edge, it's a pretty bulletproof method to set a good bevel, and be sure about it (a very common newbie honing problem).

On my own razors, that I know are not convexed because I use only hones for sharpening and touch-ups, I never use this technique, but then again: they require no real bevel correction. (I think that's what Lynn means with "if you're just going back to the hones")

I am not promoting this as an indispensable technique that should be in the arsenal of every honer. There are other methods that achieve exactly the same.

It is clear that honing a razor is no lottery. We all know that the chances for success when doing a bit of this and doing a bit of that without much actual knowledge, are almost zero. I find it a bit painful when I sometimes read about people using particular honing techniques at the wrong place for the wrong job. "Breadknifing" can take a pretty dramatic turn in that context. But dulling on glass if far less drastic. It does not do much harm to a razor. I have used that option to my advantage many times.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart and others, I appreciate your thoughts. I really think the best test off the 1K is the TPT. I find that folks who cut hair and microscopically analyze and then test in a secret chemical and then blow on the cut hairs to see what direction they are blowing and then look at the chemical composition of the razor might be taking things a little too far.

This stuff is pretty basic. If the bevel is consistent and feels pocket knife sharp, move on. If you want to shave hairs on your forearm at 4k, great. Nice test. The next test is normally the shave for me. I absolutely see no reason to dull a razor. If it doesn't perform, then drop down to the appropriate grit and re-hone from there. Sorry, but I simply do not get this.

As I said earlier, this is one of those things that I consider most inconsequential and it has already taken up more time than what it's worth.

Thanks.

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

I really think the best test off the 1K is the TPT.

bingo

Don't try cut hair after 1 k useless test

If you want to shave hairs on your forearm at 4k, great.

Agree 100%

Thanks.

Lynn

Great. Try it you will see that is great way to get started.

Well… I would hope this guy is a professional:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...vi-videos.html

In the video, after he “sharpens” with first stone (I believe he may have already set the bevel before the camera started rolling) he then passes the razor’s edge in a sawing motion on the edge of the same hone before going on to another hone. If there is a “wire edge” or any uneven-ness it will fold over under the weight of the blade leaving a “straight” and level edge… the bulk of the edge is not affected… but the edge is for all practical purposes… dull.

So now that the edge is dull, but smooth and level, he then progressively builds the edge on higher grit hones… (I only have one question though… why not wash the razor before going to higher grit hone?).

So I did the same thing with a few razors and different hones, doesn’t take much, only the weight of the blade, and it does smooth a jagged edge. This is confirmed by a before TPT that failed with a jagged sensation, and after TPT with a slick sensation (also a fail).
Note: It may seem like swapping one failure for another, but the advantage is… now you know where the edge is.

Another confirmation… after “dulling” the edge in this way, the first stroke, on each side of the blade you can feel more drag as the hone removes the fold-over, this happens even with a high grit hone and it only takes a few strokes to get the edge keen, pass the TPT and cut arm hair (tried it with a barber hone too… but needed quite a few more strokes).

In my opinion, it’s a great way to test the cutting speed of a hone by noting the number of strokes it takes to get the edge to pass the TPT after dulling in this way. I think it’s also fun and good practice to dull a blade in this way and get it keen again within a few strokes… it is probably the least destructive to the life of the razor.
Of course one would only do this on a razor with a PROPERLY SET BEVEL.

One of our members had an interesting sig line that said “"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, and every single one of them is right!" R. Kipling”… There may or may not be nine and sixty ways to get a razor shaving sharp, but this is one technique that does help.

I have seen Mastro Livi hone in person.

There is nothing on an edge that I can think of that cannot be fixed by dropping to the next coarser grit and re-honing once you have a decent bevel established. By the way this thread has gotten so off topic that we may need to shut it down or move all this other junk to another thread specifically for this argument. I simply introduced an example of what has worked on thousands of razors for me and I think if you guys want to discuss another technique, you should take it from the top and have at it.

By the way, if this works for you, there is nothing in the world wrong with it. There are many things I may not understand, recommend or do, but we have to be open for different techniques, ideas and ways of doing things.

Thanks,

Lynn

Originally Posted by smythe

Well… I would hope this guy is a professional:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...vi-videos.html

In the video, after he “sharpens” with first stone (I believe he may have already set the bevel before the camera started rolling) he then passes the razor’s edge in a sawing motion on the edge of the same hone before going on to another hone. If there is a “wire edge” or any uneven-ness it will fold over under the weight of the blade leaving a “straight” and level edge… the bulk of the edge is not affected… but the edge is for all practical purposes… dull.

So now that the edge is dull, but smooth and level, he then progressively builds the edge on higher grit hones… (I only have one question though… why not wash the razor before going to higher grit hone?).

So I did the same thing with a few razors and different hones, doesn’t take much, only the weight of the blade, and it does smooth a jagged edge. This is confirmed by a before TPT that failed with a jagged sensation, and after TPT with a slick sensation (also a fail).
Note: It may seem like swapping one failure for another, but the advantage is… now you know where the edge is.

Another confirmation… after “dulling” the edge in this way, the first stroke, on each side of the blade you can feel more drag as the hone removes the fold-over, this happens even with a high grit hone and it only takes a few strokes to get the edge keen, pass the TPT and cut arm hair (tried it with a barber hone too… but needed quite a few more strokes).

In my opinion, it’s a great way to test the cutting speed of a hone by noting the number of strokes it takes to get the edge to pass the TPT after dulling in this way. I think it’s also fun and good practice to dull a blade in this way and get it keen again within a few strokes… it is probably the least destructive to the life of the razor.
Of course one would only do this on a razor with a PROPERLY SET BEVEL.

One of our members had an interesting sig line that said “"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, and every single one of them is right!" R. Kipling”… There may or may not be nine and sixty ways to get a razor shaving sharp, but this is one technique that does help.

Sorry Glen, but I don't see any value in dulling the edge. While I sometimes enjoy the journey I don't want to make the trip any longer than needed. Guess I've worked with too much metal to be intrigued enough to extend the process. My goal is always where the rubber meets the road and the fastest method that gets me the results I like will always be what I use. No microscopes, no polished bevels, no intricate tests, just a good smooth shave. But, if this method works for you...

The only time i would dull razor is because i have no dull razors to try a honing method out or new hone i have a couple of practice razors for that reason. If i have a razor that is dull and needs honing i just hone it untill i have good grab on tpt and move on making sure there is no little chips in the bevel at same time.

I hope this discussion doesn't die here. I am still trying to figure out why to dull a razor or where this comes from. I have been looking back at all the information I could since when we started the very first forum. I could not find any information on dulling a razor. It seems that this idea of dulling is something that has come into the environment from the knife and tool people recently. The Maestro started out and is still very well known for his work on knives and tools which he did long before razors. All additional information is definitely welcome.

If I take a great shaving razor and take it back to a 1K stone to see how another stone will sharpen that razor and put it through the same routine as a starting with a dull razor, for all practical purposes I have started over and will not be able to shave with that razor until I take it up the rest of the progression.

If a razor is pulling a little bit and I take it back to a 12K stone for 10 strokes and 10 strokes on some diamond spray to bring it back, I wouldn't understand why I would want to dull it.

If I am using a 4K and it will not shave the hair on my arm or I see micro-chipping on the edge, I see value in spending more time on the 4K or dropping down to a 1K and then coming back up to a 4K. I just don't know what value I am bringing to the process by dulling.

When I first heard the run the edge on glass thing, I tried that lightly and really, other than dulling an edge I didn't find any benefit when I simply was going back to remove more steel.

This is a learning quest........

Thanks,

Lynn

Lynn,

I am not as good at assessing the edge as you and others. So when i get a new bevel setting hone(dmt,naniwa 1k, etc...) I like to dull a razor on a glass the first time i use the stone.

Other than that, i just do the needful

Originally Posted by Lynn

I hope this discussion doesn't die here. I am still trying to figure out why to dull a razor or where this comes from. I have been looking back at all the information I could since when we started the very first forum. I could not find any information on dulling a razor. It seems that this idea of dulling is something that has come into the environment from the knife and tool people recently. The Maestro started out and is still very well known for his work on knives and tools which he did long before razors. All additional information is definitely welcome.

If I take a great shaving razor and take it back to a 1K stone to see how another stone will sharpen that razor and put it through the same routine as a starting with a dull razor, for all practical purposes I have started over and will not be able to shave with that razor until I take it up the rest of the progression.

If a razor is pulling a little bit and I take it back to a 12K stone for 10 strokes and 10 strokes on some diamond spray to bring it back, I wouldn't understand why I would want to dull it.

If I am using a 4K and it will not shave the hair on my arm or I see micro-chipping on the edge, I see value in spending more time on the 4K or dropping down to a 1K and then coming back up to a 4K. I just don't know what value I am bringing to the process by dulling.

When I first heard the run the edge on glass thing, I tried that lightly and really, other than dulling an edge I didn't find any benefit when I simply was going back to remove more steel.

This is a learning quest........

Thanks,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Lynn,

I am not as good at assessing the edge as you and others . So when i get a new bevel setting hone(dmt,naniwa 1k, etc...) I like to dull a razor on a glass the first time i use the stone.

Other than that, i just do the needful

IIRC that was the original idea behind the dulling on glass. So a honer who wasn't sure of the TPT or whatever other test wouldn't be getting "false positives" in sharpness tests ?

By lightly dulling but not damaging the edge he would be starting with a known quantity and uniform edge and wouldn't be fooled into moving to a later stage in the honing too soon.

I have to admit that I thought it was not a good idea when I first read about it and than later I thought well, maybe it isn't a bad idea in some circumstances but I've never tried it.

What I have tried is Harrelson's technique of "jointing" or did he say "joining" on the DVD ..... the edge on a fine grit stone. This is the same method but with a fine grit stone rather than a glass jar.

I tried this on a couple of razors when I was replicating Harrelson's side honing method for straight razors. His rational was that he was removing any anomalies at the micro level from the edge and he not only does it (in the DVD) at the start but also when he gets off of the 8k and on to the 16k !

Well I don't believe in contempt before investigation so I tried it as I said on a couple of razors and i don't think I ever will again. All it did for me was create more work than I already had.

Different ideas come up and we may try them and they either work or they don't. If they do we stick with them and if they don't we soon figure that out and move back to what those who cleared the land and put in the runway told us to start with.