Thread: Honing Technique

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Hello Lerch,

I did not get the info from anyone that I can remember. It does make sense to me. The fin on a razor being similar to a fin on a fish is a web with sharp points. The web closes up and the sharp points are more closely packed together as the fish swims thru water. The fin on the razor would act in a similar manner as you shave. There would be less space between each sharp point as a person shaved. I know that the idea of a fin being flexible could/will be hotly debated. My position is that it has a small degree of flex due to its thinness. My major point is that the angled striations present to the whisker an edge that has less space between the sharp points especially if one uses the scything motion or a tip(toe) leading stroke.

OK, let the discussion begin!

Hello Tuttle,

There's a lot of validity to what you say. You can actually see those striations under 200x magnification. However, a hair looks like a tree trunk next to them. Those tiny striations are like pins that stick up from the edge. I haven't been able to see it (200x is not enough), but I assume what happens when you shave is that the pins turn on an angle (sideways to the blade) instead of facing straight up. When they turn sideways, it makes the edge seem wider. Stropping would stand up those pins and make the edge narrower (sharper).

But I noticed something else that is also interesting. The edge has scratch marks that are on a much larger scale than the pins. They run crosswise along the entire edge and back on the entire width of the edge (about .5-1 mm). As you hone with finer grits the lines get narrower. If you use the x pattern, a pasted strop produce lines that cross the other lines. So, if you use the x pattern, stropping goes across the scratch marks. Leather (only) stropping polishes the lines and can make the finest lines fade.

The scratch lines are like treads on a tire and produce friction, because they come into contact with the skin behind the edge. For comfort, you would want to minimize them. With the x pattern, when you go to the pasted strops you break up the scratches because you go across them, but there are still some coarse portions. If you hone straight across the stone, everything would be parallel, and the pasted strops would break up the coarser scratch lines. Leather stropping should then give you a much smoother edge.

If you think of shaving as just a pushing operation (ignore the scything motion), angled scratch lines present more of an area to the skin than ones which are perpendicular to the edge, so you would expect angled scratch lines to have more friction (less comfort).

Manufactured blades, like Feathers all have scratch lines that are perpendicular to the edge.

Everything I've seen suggests that honing parallel to the stone should produce a better edge than the x pattern. Maybe the x pattern is only historical and a result of narrow stones.

BTW, the pins are so small that you barely see them at 200x. If you're using an 8 inch stone, the scratch lines are at about 15 degrees. As it is, the spacing between pins is much smaller than the thickness of a hair. A 15 degree angle could hardly make a difference in that spacing.

If someone has a microscope that can magnify more than 200x, we could learn a lot.

Hello Joe,

Good post!

I would suspect that due to the narrowness of the old hones an X pattern was necessary. A 3" wide stone I have not seen in any farm auction,estate sale,tool collector meeting.

You point about the effect of using a stropping motion I agree with. It would reduce the height of the ridge on the scratch pattern and thus present a thinner cross section and less abrasion to the face.

My take on this is that people will use either a toe leading or scything motion when they have shaved for awhile. If they do that then the perpendicular stroke on the hone may actually increase the irratation.

I guess you and I would have to get together to fully explain ourselves. But then, most of the guys here will try the two and decide for themselves.

Scything motion man,

Originally Posted by Korndog

I bought a nice DD Wonderedge and put it to the stones this week. I used an agressive pyramid (15/5 down) on the Shapton 5k and Kitayama 8k with little to no pressure with mediocre shave results, but it did shave. I then decided to go to the 8k/15k standard pyramid. I was able to complete a shave with it at this point but it was not super close or comfy.
Questions?
1. Would you try backhoning before going at the stones again?
2. Would you drop down to a corse grit like 2k and start over again?
3. Would you repeat the original process?TIA Larry

Bingo! I followed Randy's advise and repeated the process with slight pressure on the first sequence followed by no pressure on the conservative sequence using 8k/15k stones. I finished with some .5 paste and stropped. It passed the hh test and I enjoyed one of the best shaves ever with it today. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Scything motion man

Me too. It just made the explanation easier to ignore it. It seems to me that scything would be an equalizer, but wouldn't help the razor with the slanted scratch lines. Basiically, it places the scratch lines on an angle to the direction of movement for the straight honed razor, making it the same as the angled line. For the guys who use a sweeping motion it's even worse because the scratch lines are ground into the skin.

There's a lot of work to be done before we really understand honing and shaving.

From here on use light pressure on this razor and MUCH! much fewer laps IF! you hone it again. Your strategy now it to creep up on perfection, a little at a time. Be patient and consistent in the number of laps used. That way you will learn the rate of change that occurs with that razor and a specific sequence.
teh main thing you are trying to avoid is overhoning. The perfect edge is just a breath away from overhoned.

Hope this helps,

Originally Posted by Korndog

Bingo! I followed Randy's advise and repeated the process with slight pressure on the first sequence followed by no pressure on the conservative sequence using 8k/15k stones. I finished with some .5 paste and stropped. It passed the hh test and I enjoyed one of the best shaves ever with it today. Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Korndog

I bought a REALLY nice DD Satinedge off eBay last week. I tried several pyramid schemes on the 5/8 waterstones to no avail using x pattern. I then took the bevel to my Shapton pro 2k in a normal straight up and down fashion like the videos. I did the same with 5k,8k, and 15k This is how I sharpen my cutlery btw. I used very slight pressure when trying establish a noticeable fin, and then went ever so lightly thereafter. I will try and shave with it tomorrow, but I am absolutely thrilled to say that I could feel the edge changing throughout my honing and it passed the hanging hair test! Woohoo! Damn thing better shave now.

I wonder if there is some reason not to use this method for all of my blades in the future. Thanks guys.

Dear sir

where can i see those video's please? Thanx!!!

There is a link to the video on the fourth post of this thread...

I have found one good reason to use the x pattern I'd like to mention. I have found that honing on a stone that is not completely trued only works if you use an x pattern. I believe this is because you drag the blade down over the resultant hump and it gets honed, slowly but it works. I wonder if the X pattern was designed to prevent the effects of a slightly concave center of a hone from "poor" maintenance from having an effect on honing. ????

Next, if industrial blades are striated parallel to the edge would it not make sense to use an exaggerated x pattern and see if that works? I'm willing to give it a shot if you guys agree with the thought....

Finally I wonder if the x pattern somehow shears the edge flat and is less likely to build and overhoned irregular edge.

I guess in aggregate I'm wondering if the x pattern is really based on the striation patterns and whether barbers and honermiesters of the day really worried about the striations at all. I have a sense that many of them didn't even look at the blade with a microscope.

Larry, Unless a DD Wonderedge's edge is rough or really in bad shape, starting at 15 strokes may be too much. I usually start with 5 strokes on the pyramid down on these razors and if not perfect, work with 1-3's from there. Lynn

Originally Posted by Korndog

I bought a REALLY nice DD Satinedge off eBay last week. I tried several pyramid schemes on the 5/8 waterstones to no avail using x pattern. I then took the bevel to my Shapton pro 2k in a normal straight up and down fashion like the videos. I did the same with 5k,8k, and 15k This is how I sharpen my cutlery btw. I used very slight pressure when trying establish a noticeable fin, and then went ever so lightly thereafter. I will try and shave with it tomorrow, but I am absolutely thrilled to say that I could feel the edge changing throughout my honing and it passed the hanging hair test! Woohoo! Damn thing better shave now.

I wonder if there is some reason not to use this method for all of my blades in the future. Thanks guys.

I don't know how I missed this post originally, because I'm experimenting with x-pattern vs. straight honing.

As I understand this, you went straight down the stone, with the razor perpendicular to the length of the hone (not heel leaing). This worked when the x-pattern didn't? I'm looking for these kinds of comparisons.

Did you take any microscope pictures of this edge?

Since you're experienced and successful with this kind of honing there's no reason not to use it all the time.

Originally Posted by ryan_a

Here is my question: Would it be bad to hone the same razor for 10 minutes a day? Or would it have little impact as long as one takes it easy? I honed my new razor tonight for a while and it didn't seem to cause much 'wear and tear'.

I jut got my new DOVO and had my first straight shave ever. It was interesting and I think I will stick with it. I tried to use the pyramid pattern to hone the edge. I started to get the hang of it but it took a little time. I was able to shave my cheek without too much discomfort at all, and got a pretty good shave. It seemed to pull a little too much on the other cheek so I stopped. I then honed it again, stopped and shaved against the grain on my neck (because I hastily finished the job with my mach III) because there were some spots. I got 90% of these spots with slight discomfort.

Honing is not like stropping; it's something you do only occasionally. Once you get an edge keen, all need to do is strop. If it starts to lose it's keen, just a few swipes on a very fine hone or pasted strop will bring it back. If you do that, you can avoid honig for a long time.

But it seems like you want to hone. If so, get yourself a cheap razor and hone it to oblivion. It's not the way to treat a razor of value.