Here we go again... coticule thread

[Whiskers]

When I have used the coticule (water only) after the 8K it has always taken 50 laps or more to produce a keener edge than the 8K. The first 25 laps on the coticule ( water only) seems to dull the edge a bit. I have concluded that the first 25 laps are reshaping the edge/bevel.

Interesting ... The coticule is working the bevel, thats for sure. Maybe I didnt do enough laps, I dont know. I will give this a run tonight.

My personal benchmark for "is a razor sharp enough" is will it shave arm hair when the edge is about 1/4 inch above the skin.


-Chief

Me too. Usually I get that from the Norton 4k. I assumed I should get ths from the slurry laps.

Just IME I follow Bart's method of starting with a milky slurry and diluting it as I go along until it is virtually water only. That is if I'm using a slurry.

I will try this tonight as well. I like the idea of graduating the slurry. To me, this makes sense from what I know of the coticule.

If you just use a coticule it makes a lovely polisher.

I am very impressed with just how smooth the beveled edge is from the coticule. I feel that smoothness and want to use the blade.... but it currently isnt sharp enough to shave with. Thanks for the link. I am checking that out now ...


Thanks for the replies everyone!

[JimmyHAD]

I think he has actually changed his stance a bit on this and uses just the coticule now.

Ben, I think Bart still holds with what he wrote on the DMT/bbw/yellow but he also experimented with the 'one coticule honing' method. I don't think one replaced the other. Just another arrow in the quiver.

[gary haywood]

I had th same problem as you when i first got my bbw/coti there no dout that heavy slurry will cut quiker but will leave edge baerly shavable. It realy baffled me i did loads of experimenting i use my 4k 8k norton to speed things up if needed. But i use yellow coticule with a good slurry for razor that is slightly dull and once the bevel is set then i start to dilute every 10 laps with a spray of water each time untill the water becomes misty . clean coticule add plent of fresh water i let the stone rest for athew miniutes then i will do 50 laps on water strop linen and leather then shave it realy works for me now i mostly add 20 laps on cr.5 oxide that makes a real differance.

[DwarvenChef]

I must be an odd one out here, I never use a slurry on my coti and never need more that 20 strokes. I also believe each stone is different as mine cuts very well. Off the 8k norton I go to the Oohira japanese hone for 10-20 laps, than on to the coti for 10-20 laps. Best edges I have ever felt, even from just using these stone by themselves of in different combinations. Sometimes just playing around with how your rutine flows can give new results. Once I got mine down I kept at it and used it for the past 6 months or so and couldn't be happier

I'm also currious about how it is accepted that the coti is around 8k, mine just seems to go well beyond that.

Hope some of this helps.

[Slartibartfast]

it depends on how you are using it.

I am using my coti w/ slurry and watering down. No 4k/8k stone involved.

I must be an odd one out here, I never use a slurry on my coti and never need more that 20 strokes. I also believe each stone is different as mine cuts very well. Off the 8k norton I go to the Oohira japanese hone for 10-20 laps, than on to the coti for 10-20 laps. Best edges I have ever felt, even from just using these stone by themselves of in different combinations. Sometimes just playing around with how your rutine flows can give new results. Once I got mine down I kept at it and used it for the past 6 months or so and couldn't be happier

I'm also currious about how it is accepted that the coti is around 8k, mine just seems to go well beyond that.

Hope some of this helps.

[gary haywood]

Same hear i only use slurry when needed and then water down to refine and polish for touch up i'd use just water or very misty slurry then water. If i used the 4k 8k to speed things up for achange i'd only finish coti water to polish there are many ways but i try and just use the one hone if it does'nt work the 4k 8k are great to fall back to and worth having.

[Lynn]

Going back some years, I used my coticule with a light slurry for finishing. At first with no pastes and then later followed by diamond paste. I usually only did 10-15 laps though. Then I switched to just water for the same 10-15 laps again finishing with .5 diamond paste. When I was experimenting with Barts system, I still used 10-15 X strokes for finishing and it worked pretty well. Sometimes for the fun of it, I'll do 20-40 very light circles on the coticule with water followed by 10 X strokes and that works pretty well too.

Lynn

[Bart]

There are several procedures possible on a Coticule that give good results. Unfortunately, there are also many procedures possible that give disappointing results.

I'll try to set a few important markers for you (some of them already explained in this thread):

1. Very important: Using slurry introduces a sharpness barrier. Edges will not become sharper than that limit. Edges that were sharper to begin with will be reset to the limit, within very few laps. I've set that in bold, because many Coticule beginners often can't resist to use slurry. When they're nearly there, they decide on doing a few final laps on slurry, and unknowingly reset everything the had gained so far. This can be frustrating. I still remember putting my very first Dovo, that was just dulling slightly, for 10 conservative laps on my new Coticule with a good slurry. How I cursed that stone during my next shave! My razor had become duller and I was sure my honing stroke had been nice and even. I only much later figured out it were the loose garnets in the slurry that were detrimental to the very edge.
Bottom line: (regular) milk-like slurry is for doing bevel work. When finished the razor will (barely) shave arm hair. The funny thing is: fast Coticules have a duller limit than slow ones. Hence some will leave an edge that only shaves arm hair with serious effort, and others will max out at an edge that shaves a whole deal better. Very few even leave an edge when coming off slurry, that can actually qualify for shaving the beard.

2. With only water, there's no significant sharpness barrier. No loose garnets in the fluid, hence no detrimental effect to the very edge. But there's a big challenge lying ahead. A Coticule with water is generally very slow. Most stones are too slow to refine the sharpness left by the slurry. It would take several thousands of laps to get rid of the residual roundness on the edge that was left there by the slurry. (Yes I have actually tried doing those 1000's of laps) Note that you need to remove a layer of steel of the entire bevel faces to achieve a meaningful sharpening of the edge. The big question is: how to cross that gap of keenness?

3. the gap could be crossed by other hones. I have had good success with that by using synthetic hones in the 6-10k region. Also the Belgian Blue with light slurry is capable of adding the required keenness. (The blue with light slurry has a barrier of its own, but it's a sharper limit than slurry on a Coticule.)

4. you can also cheat by applying one layer of tape to the spine. I have baptized this the "Unicot" method. By thickening the spine with one layer of tape, the razor tips a bit more on the very edge. As a result all abrasive power is temporarily diverted to a small region at the very tip of the edge. A new bevel starts to grow from the tip down, and as long as that new bevel is still very narrow, even a Coticule with water can make a significant refinement. The exact procedure is described in this thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...oticule+honing

5. Once the slurry limit is reached, you can start to slowly dilute the slurry, a few drops of water per 10 strokes. It takes many laps, and it also demands that you experiment with your particular Coticule to find the best stroke-count/dilution-speed ratio. Here's another post, where I shared a basic scheme as a starting point, if you want to give the Dilucot method a try. Don't expect instant miracles, unless you get very lucky. But the edges can be amazing. And the more you practice, the higher the success rate becomes. The big advantage of the Dilucot method is, that even if it fails, you'll still have a very nice, single beveled edge, that will gain what little keenness it still needs, very quickly on a BBW or any other high grit synthetic hone.

6. Coticules like some pressure during the first stages of the honing. If you place the razor on the hone, with the index finger pressing down on the middle of the blade, you can easily control the right amount of pressure. Never apply pressure with your wrist. Only use the muscles of your index finger. You won't apply too much that way. I always use half X-strokes when I have my index finger on the blade. "Half X-strokes" are exactly what it says. Don't flip the razor, but just rub back and forth, doing only the half of the X-stroke and its reverse while going back. (razor makes contact at all times) Count till done 20 (or 30). Then flip the razor and repeat the same stroke count on the other side. The further down in the honing job, the less pressure you need to apply. At a certain point you must remove the index finger and start doing full X-strokes with low pressure, end with the lowest possible pressure.
How far down the procedure you can use the faster half-stroke technique, I can't tell you. I'm still finding out.
But in any case you can use them during the regular slurry stage.

7. Of course you can also get the razor shaveready with other viable honing methods and gear, and just finish the edge on the Coticule with only water.

I hope you'll find something in the above that suits you.

Best regards and good luck,
Bart.

[gary haywood]

Going back some years, I used my coticule with a light slurry for finishing. At first with no pastes and then later followed by diamond paste. I usually only did 10-15 laps though. Then I switched to just water for the same 10-15 laps again finishing with .5 diamond paste. When I was experimenting with Barts system, I still used 10-15 X strokes for finishing and it worked pretty well. Sometimes for the fun of it, I'll do 20-40 very light circles on the coticule with water followed by 10 X strokes and that works pretty well too.

Lynn

Lynn i've been finishing on 4k8k n pyramids stropping and shaving and i have found the shaves of 8k to be realy good then i've added 20 laps coticule with water and then shaved and to be onest i carn't realy say if there is a big enought differance to notice after paste just 10 to 15 i do notice differance did you find alot of differance coming of coticule or just a little enought to notice. Basicly what differnce did you notice.

[blade13]

Here we go again. I need another coticule to buy. And I got into this to save money.......