Thread: Bevel Setting

Can a person set a bevel on a Norton 4K, or does one need a 1K? Thank you for all responses.

Yes you can set on a 4k without any problem

However restoration and bevel setting are two different things or rather a different degree of the same operation...

IE:
A new Dovo = Bevel set

A thrashed e-baby with an uneven edge = Restoration

Now you can do either with a 4k but it will take 4 times as many laps than a 1k to do the same metal removal...

+1 to what Glen said. I'm mighty glad to have a DMT 1200 for the tough ones.

+1 on the very essence of what Glen said...

but not on the notion that 1K is 4 times faster than a 4K. It's considerably faster than that.

particle size of a Norton 1k=14 micron (according to Norton)
particlz size of a Norton 4K=3 micron (also according to Norton)

Since where talking about 3 dimensional particles, we have to calculate in volumes. The 4K particles fit about 4 times in the 1k particles in each axis (x,y and z), hence 4 X 4 X 4= 64. So: while the 4K particles are 4 times smaller in diameter,they are 64 times smaller in volume. Fortunately the scraches they make run the same length, so we only have to bring a 2 dimensional cross section into account. The 3th dimension is actually the length of a scratch, which is obviously constant. But the cross section of that scratch is defined by 2 dimensions of the particle. 4 times smaller X 4 times smaller = 16 times smaller.
This is only true if the scratches run full depth of a particle. Now I don't think honing scratches are the full depth of the particle size, but I believe that the speed difference between a 1K hone and a 4K hone will be closer to 16 times than to 4 times. My point is that dividing the grit numbers does not yield a correct estimate of the speed ratio between 2 hones.
That explains why the speed difference between 1K and, let's say 8K is big enough to keep you honing all week, if you go to the 8k too early.

But yes, bevel correction can be done on a 4K synthetic water hone.
Bevel repair is in an entirely different realm.

Bart.

Onimaru55 made me aware in a PM that Norton used to have different ratings for their hones. I too remember that they rated their 8K as 3 micron, and not the 4K.
Here's where I doublechecked the current micron ratings:
Norton Water Stones at Tools for Working Wood

I think the Norton marketing department decided to follow Shapton, that always rated their 8K finer than 3 micron... This only confirms that these firms can actully say what they want in advertising. The value of truth is reversely correlated to the bank accounts of the stockholders.

Bart.

I respectfully absolutly positively disagree, and I have only this as proof...

Take a 4k Norton and do 1600 laps, going on your assumtions that a 1k is 16 times faster than a 4k...

Let me know how all that works for you


For the rest of you people lost in the GritZone please DO NOT do 1600 laps on any stone I'm being sarcastic here...

Originally Posted by Bart

I think the Norton marketing department decided to follow Shapton, that always rated their 8K finer than 3 micron... This only confirms that these firms can actully say what they want in advertising. The value of truth is reversely correlated to the bank accounts of the stockholders.

Bart.

Marketing is always a hazy truth but its the results that count.
I won't set or restore bevels on any eBay junker with anything finer than 1k.

While a little confusing for those who are not mathematically inclined (like me!), Bart is absolutely correct.

On the surface (no pun intended), it is easy to think that 2k has twice as many particles as a 1k, and 4k twice as much as 2k. But it is the math that Bart explained which answers another question on what Glen identifies as restore vs. sharpening/bevel setting earlier on the thread here or just scroll up. (Are you following?)

At the 4K level, the particle sizes are too small and too shallow to effectively create a new bevel. The 4K can, however, remove just the thinnest layer to expose a "refreshed" layer of the bevel, like taking one layer of skin off an onion. You will not get to the core of the onion on a 4K in this lifetime - you'll most likely get to the core of the 4K if you try, though!

So to expand on Glen's answer, an already well defined bevel that is simply dull and needs to be honed can benefit from starting a 4K.

If the 4K doesn't seem to give results, from an uneven or a rounded bevel from stropping, for example, the one would require a coarser stone to reshape, or reset the bevel (i.e. 1k, 2k) - this should be relatively fast since the existing bevel is basically in place (in theory), and it is just a matter of peeling down the rogue layers of the skin of the onion so that an even layer of skin is exposed.

Restoration is removing whole layers of metal on the blade to get rid of chips, rust, and/or pitting and requires a lot of effort and a maybe even a coarser stone such as a #220.

Originally Posted by Bart

+1 on the very essence of what Glen said...

but not on the notion that 1K is 4 times faster than a 4K. It's considerably faster than that.

particle size of a Norton 1k=14 micron (according to Norton)
particlz size of a Norton 4K=3 micron (also according to Norton)

Since where talking about 3 dimensional particles, we have to calculate in volumes. The 4K particles fit about 4 times in the 1k particles in each axis (x,y and z), hence 4 X 4 X 4= 64. So: while the 4K particles are 4 times smaller in diameter,they are 64 times smaller in volume. Fortunately the scraches they make run the same length, so we only have to bring a 2 dimensional cross section into account. The 3th dimension is actually the length of a scratch, which is obviously constant. But the cross section of that scratch is defined by 2 dimensions of the particle. 4 times smaller X 4 times smaller = 16 times smaller.
This is only true if the scratches run full depth of a particle. Now I don't think honing scratches are the full depth of the particle size, but I believe that the speed difference between a 1K hone and a 4K hone will be closer to 16 times than to 4 times. My point is that dividing the grit numbers does not yield a correct estimate of the speed ratio between 2 hones.
That explains why the speed difference between 1K and, let's say 8K is big enough to keep you honing all week, if you go to the 8k too early.

But yes, bevel correction can be done on a 4K synthetic water hone.
Bevel repair is in an entirely different realm.

Bart.

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

While a little confusing for those who are not mathematically inclined (like me!), Bart is absolutely correct.

On the surface (no pun intended), it is easy to think that 2k has twice as many particles as a 1k, and 4k twice as much as 2k. But it is the math that Bart explained which answers another question on what Glen identifies as restore vs. sharpening/bevel setting earlier on the thread here or just scroll up. (Are you following?)

At the 4K level, the particle sizes are too small and too shallow to effectively create a new bevel. The 4K can, however, remove just the thinnest layer to expose a "refreshed" layer of the bevel, like taking one layer of skin off an onion. You will not get to the core of the onion on a 4K in this lifetime - you'll most likely get to the core of the 4K if you try, though!

So to expand on Glen's answer, an already well defined bevel that is simply dull and needs to be honed can benefit from starting a 4K.

If the 4K doesn't seem to give results, from an uneven or a rounded bevel from stropping, for example, the one would require a coarser stone to reshape, or reset the bevel (i.e. 1k, 2k) - this should be relatively fast since the existing bevel is basically in place (in theory), and it is just a matter of peeling down the rogue layers of the skin of the onion so that an even layer of skin is exposed.

Restoration is removing whole layers of metal on the blade to get rid of chips, rust, and/or pitting and requires a lot of effort and a maybe even a coarser stone such as a #220.

Actually in real life not the "Gritzone" I am going to explain here so there are no more misunderstanding because you guys just confused the heck outta this very simple thread....

I said this a few weeks ago when the grit charts were being quoted, that they don't really correlate to real life...

On average a fast bevel on a Norton 1k takes 20 laps (for me) a slow bevel might take as many as 150... These numbers are only important to me not everybody else, different strokes /different folks etc:

Now what you guys are saying is according to the grit charts and what you read because neither of you actually hone on Nortons that I have ever read about anyway, and please correct me if I am wrong...

Bart says my 20 laps would be closer to 320 laps and Tom says I might not ever get there....
Now on the slow bevel I could take 1600 - 2400 by Bart's calculations and for sure would never get there by Tom's....

OK now here's the problem, some of us learned on Norton 4/8's we actually have honed razors on them, in real life, in fact some of us quite a few razors...

I NEVER did that many laps, ever... Oh yeah I can get a shaving sharp razor on one...

What the point is here, is don't go by what it says, go by what it does....Charts don't tell the whole truth...


No offense intended here guys, but the point needed making and the problem is with the charts and info not you guys...
I have the utmost respect for both of you...


Now back to your regularly scheduled hone zone programing...

Which says yes a Norton 4k will be fine until you start messing with e-bay blades and damaged ones then you might wanna get a 1k...

Originally Posted by sarend

Can a person set a bevel on a Norton 4K.

Yes.

Originally Posted by sarend

Thank you for all responses.

No problem.


Just for conversation's sake ...
micron measurement/conversion : 1 µm = 3.937007e-05"