Thread: Bevel Setting

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Actually in real life not the "Gritzone" I am going to explain here so there are no more misunderstanding because you guys just confused the heck outta this very simple thread....

Not everything in life is so simple it can be put in one-liners.
I tried to make my point is the clearest way I could.
I also said that I agree with the big picture, only that I think that the speed difference between 1K and 4K is bigger than you seem to think.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now what you guys are saying is according to the grit charts (...)

Nope. I try to offer an explanation for something I experience in real life. (more about that in a minute) From what I understand of your first post, it was you that were saying that 4K is 4 times slower than 1K. That sounds pretty much like going by the figures. If I'm allowed to translate to 4/8K, than 2 laps on the 8K removes the same amount of steel than 1K lap on the 4K. To calculate even further: 4X 16k= 2X8K = 1X4K. This opens interesting perspectives for saving money spend on hones. If it were true.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

and what you read because neither of you actually hone on Nortons that I have ever read about anyway, and please correct me if I am wrong...

That is correct. I don't own any Norton hones. I own the DMTs 325, 600 and 1200 grit. I also own the Chosera 5K and 10K. As far as hones with numbers, that's all real life experience I have to offer. Having used them, I always had the distinct impression that the speeds differences are considerably bigger than what a simple division of the numbers would suggest. The Norton hones might behave differently. I'll take your word for it.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Bart says my 20 laps would be closer to 320 laps and Tom says I might not ever get there....
Now on the slow bevel I could take 1600 - 2400 by Bart's calculations and for sure would never get there by Tom's....

I don't really get that. Your 20 laps are always 20 laps.
I can't put words in Tom's mouth, but that's not what I made from his post.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK now here's the problem, some of us learned on Norton 4/8's we actually have honed razors on them, in real life, in fact some of us quite a few razors...

I NEVER did that many laps, ever... Oh yeah I can get a shaving sharp razor on one...

What the point is here, is don't go by what it says, go by what it does....Charts don't tell the whole truth...


No offense intended here guys, but the point needed making and the problem is with the charts and info not you guys...
I have the utmost respect for both of you...

That is completely mutual, Glen. Somehow I have the feeling that you read what I said in my first post as a public encouragement to do more laps. But it's the reverse actually. I am not shy of doing many laps myself. Sometimes I'm just too lazy to stand up and get a coarser hone. But there are tasks that simply cannot be done without the proper hone, that offers the required abrasive speed and power. I think we agree on that one.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now back to your regularly scheduled hone zone programing...

Which says yes a Norton 4k will be fine until you start messing with e-bay blades and damaged ones then you might wanna get a 1k...

+1

Originally Posted by gugi

nope 100 laps, you're off by 10

I stand corrected. It was running late yesterday.

Originally Posted by gugi

So, what is the correct number you ask? I believe it is 4 and that comes just from the depth of the grooves of the removed metal. the length of the groves is he same and as far as the width goes it's the same whether you have 4 times more of them when each is 4 times narrower.

At first sight, a sound theory. Basically, an army of spikes plows through the steel. 1K spikes in theory being 4 times larger in diameter than 4K spikes would make 4 laps on 4K remove the same amount of steel as 1 lap on 1K. That was my reasoning a few years back, but it doesn't hold up in reality.

When I woke up today, I took my DMT 325 - 600 combination stone. I placed a small piece of aluminum T-bar upside down on the 325 and honed till the entire top surface of the T had 325 scratches in one direction. Next I changed the honing direction 90 degrees. It took 2 full length strokes on the 325 to completely replace the previous scratch pattern with one running in the new direction. Then I flipped the hone over to the 600 side. (Note that my 325 doubles as a lapping plate for Coticules and that is has considerably more wear than the 600) Still, it took me 20 full length laps to replace the 325 grit scratches with 600 grit scratches. (I made the new scratches perpendicular to the 325 ones) To finish this humble experiment, I replaced the 600 grit scratch pattern with a new one running in perpendicular direction. That took 4 laps.

I could run the same experiment on my Choseras 5K and 10K, but do I really need to? I already know that the two 10K-laps don't equal one 5K laps. Not even close.

Best regards and no disrespect intended,
Bart.

To Jerry
Please this is only for this person.
My opinion is this .Jerry you are killing your blades. 325 grit dmt you will need use only there is a big chips on the blade i mean really big. over then that 325 is very good for lapping other stones.
Now if you are setting bevel razor bought from ebay i would agree with you go head use 1k.
if you are sharpening your daily used razor until your drop that blade and mess up the edge you don't need 1k hone . mostly 4k will do the job.
I hope dmt 8c you have used has been brake in already.
Please don't use it dmt 8c anymore this is how it looks like after dmt8c edge of the blade approximation

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

after this you will need to take saw tooth out and that is loosing steel.
i hope i am clear enough . if you have a question please send pm. i will gladly answer.
GL



[QUOTE=mrsell63;449726]

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

This is all mix up.
Why to make so difficult simple stuff?
1k has larger particles then 4 k.
Now when you move your blade against larger particles , they will remove more metal in larger size and will leave larger scratches.
(Now we do assume they are made with same company and join with same glue etc) above statement should be correct.
Now can you set bevel with 4k of course you can i am sure you can set bevel with AN ESCHER but questions is how long it will take and how much stone you will loose.
1k advisable for straight razor because you do remove enough metal which easy set the bevel . Can you use 325 yes but result you are removing unnecessary metal. if you are sharpening axis i am sure i will say please go head use 100 grit stone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been relying on my DMT 8c which is 325 grit marked on the box. It very definitely does remove steel at a good clip. My question to hi_bud_gl is , should I slow down and go with the Norton 1000 or am I OK with the DMT 8c. I try to set the proper bevel before I polish the edge. I always hope that I am not removing too much steel (especially with my Bismarck). It seems that some honesters have a somewhat better handle on this situation than I do. I spent too many years with just a 3 line Swaty hone and a leather strop. All this modern stuff basically confuses me but I keep buying Coticules, Shaptons, Nakayamas and Naniwas just the same.

I feel inadequate because after all these years I feel I should be more accomplished at honing than I am. I still refuse to be discouraged.

Half of my razors shave great and the other half still need that magic touch. I am turning my attention to multi / micro bevels. In case you never hear from me again, that's where I'll be....

Jerry
~~~

Reading what Jerry said prompts me to say that along with buying a bunch of hones getting a bunch of razors is essential too. If a person wants to learn to hone the only way is to hone a lot of razors. Study the info in the SRP Wiki and in the forum archives, watch the videos and try to apply what you've learned from them.

To me each razor is a potential challenge. Some come sharp easy and some are a struggle. I called Lynn on the phone yesterday and asked his opinion on what approach to use on a particularly recalcitrant blade. Going to an expert for advice personally or on the forum is always beneficial IME.

I've only used a 325 to remove a large chip and once on a bad frown. Both ebay razors. On any that I hone I check the existing bevel and decide whether a 1k is the best bet or if it isn't bad if a 4k would be better and go from there. What to use to set the bevel ain't carved in stone. Each razor is an individual case and should be approached as such.

On some of them I will use the 1200 diamond plate. If I find the edge is getting chippy with the diamonds, which I sometimes run into, I will switch to a Shapton pro or a Naniwa. I examine the edge under magnification as I go and determine what will work the best for a given razor. If it is a 4k that is where I start or a 1k if that is what I think it needs.

I recall I was doing a bevel on an ebay special and did a TNT. It dug in nicely for the length of the blade. I took it to the 30x microscope and even though it felt good on the TNT it needed a lot more work on the 1k. If I hadn't had the magnification I would've moved up in grit too soon. As a buddy of mine told me a long time ago,"the whole is the sum of it's parts." IOW, all of this stuff works together to reach the goal and neglecting any part affects that outcome. End of ramble.

Originally Posted by Bart

I also said that I agree with the big picture, only that I think that the speed difference between K and 4K is bigger than you seem to think.

That sounds pretty much like going by the figures. If I'm allowed to translate to 4/8K, than 2 laps on the 8K removes the same amount of steel than K lap on the 4K. To calculate even further: X K= 8K = 4K. This opens interesting perspectives for saving money spend on hones. If it were true.

(I never said anything about 8k stones but just for S&G yes you can do the exact same one stone trick as you do with a Coti with the 8k Norton, bevel set to shaving sharp)


See this is where the problem started, as I wasn't going by numbers (as in multiplying 4 by 1) I was going by actual experience on the actual hones that the OP was asking about ...

But that wasn't actually good enough you, had to confuse the issue by bringing in facts and figures which were totally meaningless to the actual discussion that was talking place....

Let me reiterate for you
THE OP:
"I have a 4k NORTON can I set the bevel on razors with it or do I need a 1K NORTON"...

Not DMT, not Shapton, not Chosera, not any other stone or question...

Very simple straight forward answer, YES you can, however it will take about 4 times as many strokes as the 1K to set the bevel.. (ACTUAL NUMBERS NOT A THEORY)


Now for some reason we had to expound on that very simple answer ??????? and 20 plus posts later we are still at the same place YES A 4k Norton can set bevels...

And I will be very, very, clear here, IME it is about 4 times slower then the 1k Norton....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

But that wasn't actually good enough you, had to confuse the issue by bringing in facts and figures which were totally meaningless to the actual discussion that was talking place....

(...) Now for some reason we had to expound on that very simple answer ??????? and 20 plus posts later we are still at the same place YES A 4k Norton can set bevels...

Originally Posted by Bart

+1 on the very essence of what Glen said...
(...)But yes, bevel correction can be done on a 4K synthetic water hone.
Bevel repair is in an entirely different realm.

Originally Posted by Bart

The bottom line is that we all agree, except about how much the speed difference precisely is.

Originally Posted by Bart

I also said that I agree with the big picture, (...)

I don't think we disagree. It surprises me that the Norton 1K and 4K relate to eachother in that way. I would have suspected the 1K to be much faster than that, based upon experience with other hones and how the speed difference seems more on a logaritmical scale than on a linear one.
We can easily agree to disagree on these details, if that's how you feel. It was a nice discussion and I have learned a thing or two about the Norton hones. Whether it confused the original poster, I can't really tell, but in that case, I apologize. Would this thread have appeared in the newby section, I would have started a new one here.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

(I never said anything about 8k stones but just for S&G yes you can do the exact same one stone trick as you do with a Coti with the 8k Norton, bevel set to shaving sharp)

that is great news Glen. Imo, internet forums are always a bit inclined to develop gear fetishism. For straight razor users who are not into collecting hones and razors, I acclaim every option that allows great results with nominal equipment. It would be great to see the Unicot method translated to hones like the Shapton 16K or the Naniwa 12K. I've been trying it myself with a Nakayama and with a Chosera 10K, but I had problems getting a decent bevel on razors that were a bit off. Once the bevel is there, produced by a DMT1200 for instance, using the secondary bevel procedure to jump straight to one of both these fine finishers works like a charm.
Without even owning them, I don't doubt that for the thrifty among us, buying a Naniwa1K, a Naniwa12K and a roll of tape is one of the most economical ways to get a razor from very dull to wickedly sharp. Set bevel on 1K, apply one layer of tape to the spine, refine and finish the edge on 12K. Strop without tape. When in need of a touch up: 12K with tape.
I know the above strays away from the original question, but in case this thread was inspired by searching cost-effective honing options, I feel it's worth mentioning.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

I know the above strays away from the original question, but in case this thread was inspired by searching cost-effective honing options, I feel it's worth mentioning.

Best regards,
Bart.

Or maybe it isn't off topic ? Since honing a few razors with them I can say that the Naniwa SuperStones 1k, 3k, 5k produce a shave worthy edge comparable to my results with my Norton 1k, 4k, 8k. Adding the Naniwa 8k into the mix and it is of course smoother and more refined but I could do just fine if all I had was the 1, 3 , and 5k or the Norton set. This is based on my particular beard and all of the usual qualifiers. IOW, YMMV.

I wrote the following this morning but got distracted at the last moment and just found the window and submitted it...

Originally Posted by Bart

When I woke up today, I took my DMT 325 - 600 combination stone. I placed a small piece of aluminum T-bar upside down on the 325

I could run the same experiment on my Choseras 5K and 10K, but do I really need to? I already know that the two 10K-laps don't equal one 5K laps. Not even close.

So whatever you find, you still have the problem with transferability to Norton 1k/Norton 4k? I think depending on the hone and the way it's used the cutting process can scale as anything from sublinear to cubic with the particle size. Just consider your experiments with belgian hones.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

YouTube - Go Get Your Mule (original)