Thread: Honing Feedback

I'd like to start a thread to discuss honing feedback during the stages of taking a razor to shaving bliss. Please comment, correct or add to...I would love to be able to coorelate feedback with a particular grit or hone but that may not be possible. I think the order, based on my very simple understanding, would be:

Does not shave 1,000-4,000

Sort of shaves, but causes irritation 4,000

Passes a thumb test ????? (I don't use these)

Shaves well but not great, no irritation 8,000

"Sucks to hone"

Passes hanging hair test

Shaves great .5 micron

Pulls when stropped on leather Barber maintenance hone

Shaves incredible Use Strop only

If these are parallel in your opinion include that, such as

Pulls when stropped on leather = Shaves incredible

Hope this makes sense to you guys, thoughts?

I know we all like to quantify honing to some sort of formula or technique but I've come to the conclusion that each razor is an individual and each requires something different as far as grit, pressure technique goes. While honing up my two SRPs for the "grand experiment" I found that #38 required 100 passes on the 4K with pressure while #39 required barely 30.

I would agree that if the razor doesn't shave period the 4K is the minimum needed. A microsopic exam will reveal just how bad the edge is. If there is no edge a 1K is probably in order.

If it shaves but with irritation probably the 8K is what is needed. Really, if it shaves but there are comfort issues depending on the shave or the comfort level it could require anything from the 8K to just a plain leather strop.

Shaving is the acid test. I don't care how well is pops arm hairs, passes the thumb test or the hanging whatever test only the shave will reveal whats needed next and the combinations to use to remedy the situation are endless. You just need time, patience and experience. I don't know if you could really list what to do in each situation.

AFD, this may or may not really apply to your post, but it's just that which sent my mind out into left field. I'm starting to wonder just how telling the hanging hair test is. Maybe it's a good test, maybe not. Let me explain my line of thinking, and then an example. If a kitchen knife is TOO sharp, meaning the edge is too polished, it will have a harder time beginning the slice into a ripe tomato, whereas a normal very sharp knife has microscopic serrations that will tear through the tomato skin at a very small level. It would begin the slice easier. I've had a razor at Chinese 12k+ sharp, then stropped and it would barely pass the hanging hair test. I think it helps for the edge to not be TOO polished, otherwise the hair will slide right off, unless you exert a small amount of pressure. Does this apply with the shave as well? I know we don't want jagged edges to rake our face raw, but how polished is TOO polished? Is there such a thing? I had another razor that will plink off hanging hairs all day. I then .5 pasted it followed by .25 pasting and a regular stropping session. It would no longer pass the hanging hair test, but shaved very very well. Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this. I keep thinking to my barber here in town. Lathers his hone with shave soap, a few quick swipes with the razor, then a few quick strokes on the strop. That's it. It LOOKS like it shaves smoothly enough as he shaves himself in the morning at his shop, but I have no idea. He's a funny old bird and won't let anyone touch his razor. Nor does he do straight shaves anymore, except on himself. Every day for like 60 years he says. They didn't have these 12-15-30k stones back then, nor the Amplex pastes. Are we taking it too far? Is there such a thing as too sharp? If the edge truly is smooth as glass at a microscopic level, would it have anything with which to gain purchase on the whisker? Or would the hair simply lay down as the edge smothly glides over it? My thought process is that it is the tiny tiny serrations that actually tear into the whisker and begin the cut. If we get too good at removing these imperfections on the edge, have we gone too far? Then again maybe I killed one brain cell too many. OK now I have a headache.

I suspect you're right about the "too polished" thing, threeput. I sent one of my early ebay razors along the 8k about 30 times and it didn't perform so well, but just a few light passes after a few light passes on the 4k ala the pyramid and it starts working. It's the technique really isn't it. Once you've got the touch you might be able to get by like your barber friend does and that'll do it. For us who haven't the 60 years experience we need the best tools to overcome our greenness.

Not to dis the old barber, but although his technique might work for the shave, it might not be BEST for the long life of the razor. I gotta wonder about some of the butchered honing jobs I see on ebay.

X

The hanging hair test doesn't work with my hair and neither does the arm hair cutting test. Virtually no razor passes, because my hair is too thin and flexible. So, I learned the thumb and thumbnail tests. Since I felt I finally could use those tests I've done about 30 razors and every razor that passed the thumb test passed the shaving test. The shaving test is the ultimate test, but after 30 successe in a row, I think that the thumb test is pretty reliable for me.

Here is the way I use the two tests:

THUMB
Do this test when you first pick up a razor.

Support the razor gently with the edge pointing up and lightly drag your thumb across the edge in a few places along the blade:

1) If the thumb slides easily and there’s no grab, go to the thumbnail test;

2) If the razor grabs slightly, do 3 swipes on 8K stone and 15-20 on strop, then repeat test;

3) If the razor grabs but you feel no edge do 10 swipes on strop, then repeat test;

4) If the razor grabs really well or moves with the thumb, you will usually feel an edge- shave.




THUMBNAIL
You have failed the thumb test.


Rest the blade on top of the thumbnail with edge pointing down and tilt the thumb downward slowly. If the razor slips sideways go to the 4K stone.

If not, bring thumb back to level and slide the blade on thumbnail from one end to the other:

1) If the blade slides smoothly and doesn’t dig in, go to the 4K stone (dull);

2) If the blade digs in but doesn’t move smoothly, go to the 8K stone (coarse);

3) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, but you feel a gap or bump, you have a nick at that spot;

4) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, go to the strop;

5) If the blade digs in but makes a rough, scraping sound you have an overhoned edge.

I described my tests in terms of using a 4/8K stone, but you can move up to finer grits. At each level you stay at a grit as long as you feel thedge improve. When it doesn't make a difference move up to the next finer grit.

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

Originally Posted by threeputt

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

Your arm will fall off, first .....

Originally Posted by threeputt

This is more in line with the original post. I guess I've known it for awhile, but never really payed that close of attention. Bear with my teminology here, and keep your smirks and elbows to yourselves. I don't know any other term to use besides this. It's common knowledge that when you are approaching optimum on a wet stone, the blade will begin to "suck" to the hone. With 8000 it does somewhat, and with even finer stones it does more so. The edge is becoming so perfectly flat on the stone that it seems to create a sort of suction. My point is this....as it begins to suck, it seems to suck in certain spots and then release in others. If you keep going until the suck is consistent and uniform down the stone, then you're there. (OK one joke wouldn't hurt anybody). This is all assuming your hone is perfectly true and flat. Trueness is of utmost importance at this point I believe. Last night I had a razor sucking so hard on the Chinese 12k+ (OK one more joke and that's it) that I could actually let it go and it would stay there for a second with the handle hanging over in mid-air. Before I reached that point, it started to stick to the stone in spots, but gradually spread to the entire honing surface. At this point, a few very light strokes, then to the strop. I'm enjoying this. Experts chime in.... is it possible to overhone with the Chinese stone? I don't mean 5000 strokes, but could, say, a few hundred at very light pressure do any harm? It took my about 75 round trips to get to this point, so I figure if less than a few hundred, lightly of course, is safe, then it would never become an issue. It is so smooth it can't be removing much steel.

I've never seen an explanation of what that suction is. I suspect it has to do with the scratch lines. I'm guessing that when they're really fine the water seals all the space between the razor and hone. If that is true, it certainly would be comfortable because any friction of the scratch lines against the skin would be eliminated. I don't know if that also means that the edge is maximally sharp. First, we'd have to know what causes an improvemeny in sharpness as you hone the finer grits.

Does anybody know or have any ideas?

I've wondered about this too, I thought that the suction was due to the edge being smooth enough to make a seal to the stone, and then their being resulting suction created between it, the water, and the hollow of the blade.
It would be interesting to learn what it really is, though. I think all of us have noticed it. And by the way, Joe your thumb method sounds a little different than I've done. I'm going to try your version out myself this weekend, thanks for the good instructions. Here is essentially my method: In the past I would hone until I "felt" the stone, (the sucking everyone is discussing) then I would drag the edge on a wet thumbnail; if it dug in smooth I would strop it, and if afterwards I could feel the edge "catch" on my wet thumb, I would see if it would cut a hair waved across the edge (the hanging hair test, in a "less dangerous" method). Sometimes I also like to look at the edge as i go, using a microscope, although I must admit some of the smoothest LOOKING edges aren't necessarily the smoothest SHAVING ones...
Interesting stuff.
John P.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I've never seen an explanation of what that suction is. I suspect it has to do with the scratch lines. I'm guessing that when they're really fine the water seals all the space between the razor and hone. If that true, it certainly would be comfortable because any friction of the scratch lines against the skin would be eliminated. I don't know if that also means that the edge is maximally sharp. First, we'd have to know whats causing the improvemeny in sharpness.

Does anybody know or have any ideas?

When I get near to a perfect edge, I notice a difference in the "pull" of the razor on the stone. It seems to cling a bit. The sound of the steel against the stone also changes. Ditto on the strop ... the sound changes .... It's hard to describe in words .....