Thread: Some thoughts on "Learning to Hone"

not only that, but it really dispells a lot of the 'mystery' from honing once you've had a go your self and shaved off your own razor!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

There isn't one of us that hasn't scored a great 5/8 hollow grind with zippo hone wear off e-bay for less than $20... The problem is that new guys don't know how to shop for those razors on e-bay or at antique shops...

I think that this is the main problem, getting good razors to start on. To start with I think a few cheap razors with good geometry (i.e. not warped) are best. My first two razor I've worked on have been pains in the butt, I can understand why someone would want to give up. One of them I got on ebay for $10. I had no idea what I was buying, but it looked decent. I took some minor chips out it with a dmt 600, and it sharpened up real nicely, that thing was evaporating hairs the second they touched them, but the toe just won't get sharp. I give it a good rolling stroke, and it looks like it touches on the hone, but something else is wrong with it I don't know. I'm holding out for some better razors though.

I think a wiki that lists a few brands, and some places to get cheap razors that sit nice and flat on the hone would be great.

As for costs, I don't think it's that bad. All I have is a Coticule and dmt. You could hone anything with that setup. As a newbie I couldn't be more pleased with this setup. It's very simple, and inexpensive. I use the dmt to repair chips and the such, and the Coticule for everything else.

I posted here a while back, about my journey past honing 100 razors. I am now over 160 and still counting. Since I already commented on "learning to hone" in that thread, there seems to be one issue that I think, we as a community, have overlooked.

Some of the newbes, who have sent me razors, also had, what I thought, were too many questions. So what I did was set up a time to call them. I had them write down every question they wanted answered, have their equipment next to them, including mug, brush, razor, strop and whatever else they might want to ask about.

I tried to walk them through the use of each one and answer all the questions they had. These answers were, of course, my own personal stuff. The best I could do at the time...Smle...

At any rate, it has since bothered me when someone with 4 or 11 or 19 posts is asking about what stones they need to buy to hone their razor. Are we missing the most important part of their experience by not teaching them how to maintain their edge properly, to extend its, life before we teach them how to hone?

Honing is not for everybody, at least I don't think it is. If someone has 4 razors and maintains them properly, they could get about 1 year of service out of them before they need to start sending them out for a professional honing. This, for some, would not only be more economical but also less frustrating.

I have often thought of allowing newbes to pm me and set up a call to answer questions, as I have before, that cuts through the frustration of finding their way to answers on the site. It does take a while to get use to the wealth of info here and put it in some kind of order. Maybe we could then get some off to a really great start, and make their journey even more enjoyable.

Just my personal thoughts, and I don't intend for this to upset anyone.


Ray

Originally Posted by gssixgun

"Get some Crap Razors and learn to hone" My new mission: Every time somebody says this, I have to ask why??? why would we as experienced people keep telling newbs "Get some crap razors to practice honing on" When anyone who hones razors know for a fact the easiest razors to hone are the ones that are either New/NOS, or that are just beginning to dull out... What are your thoughts?????

I’ve been meaning to reply to this thread sooner just didn’t have the time for a good reply, sorry.

First off I would tell any newbie not to try honing a razor until they can judge a shave ready razor. Period. Purchase a shave ready razor or send one out to be honed properly. If you can, two is better. Hold one in reserve until you screw up the first or it needs a touch up. Shave with a straight every day for at least 3 months, or every other day for a bit longer before thinking about honing. Getting your first razors honed by someplace that offers a free second honing, like Straight Razor Designs is money well spent.

Second, I would not recommend a ‘crap’ razor, just a cheap razor from the approved list. They can be had. Some on Ebay with scale problems or the like, some just not on the ‘hot’ list currently. Local antique shops, flea markets, estate sales and yard sales. Something I haven’t seen is requests in the classifieds for razors to practice honing with. Now there’s a thought.

Third, most requests for assisting in picking tools for honing are missing an important bit of information: What type of razors will they be honing mostly. This makes a big difference in the hones to purchase.

Forth, honing looks easy, but it’s not. There is a lot of muscle control that is not obvious to the onlooker that effects the end results. For most of us it takes a while to ‘discover’ these nuances and results in more hone wear that needed for a pro t o bring the edge to shave ready. This is my reason to suggest a cheap (under $40) razor for the preferred maker’s list as a starting point. These razors will probably need the bevels set. This is a good thing as the metal needs to come off anyway and the practice in strokes (muscle coordination and pressure) needs to be learned the old fashion way. While numerous hones of varying grits are accepted by SRP members I would suggest getting a 4/8k Norton combo. It will take a bit longer to set the bevel using the 4k but the time on the hones is needed to become proficient anyway. Once a shave ready edge is obtained a finishing hone can be considered. This I believe is the best cheapest way to introduce someone to honing. If money is of no concern there are obviously many other options.

As many of us know, hones can be an expense unto themselves. We instruct newbies to learn straight shaving by shaving their sideburns only. When they get used to that progress to other areas of the face slowly. The skills required for honing are no less intricate than straight shaving and open a whole new money pit. The advice here should be to progress slowly and invest in hones as you progress. Practice on good quality razors that do not cost a lot of money. If you can’t find any, ask in the classified section.

Good luck to all venturing into this rewarding craft!

Originally Posted by ChickenBurrito

As for costs, I don't think it's that bad. All I have is a Coticule and dmt. You could hone anything with that setup. As a newbie I couldn't be more pleased with this setup. It's very simple, and inexpensive. I use the dmt to repair chips and the such, and the Coticule for everything else.

Costs are relative. I dropped something like £52 on my coticule and it is the single most expensive item I have bought for shaving. It was a lot of money for me at the time as I was working part time through college. It was not a decision I made lightly and I don't think it is for many people who get involved in this hobby.

Obviously I am in quite a different position to many of the folk on here, but still, unless you're pretty sure you're going to use it often, it's a fair bit of money.

I think Ray hit it on the head. Honing ain't for everyone. Many may want to try it, but many may best served getting their rezor(s) honed by a pro and then getting a small fine stone for touch up - or - maybe better, get pasted paddle, use it, and send the razor back to a pro if it really needs some extra work. I've sharpened other tools and convinced myself that I should/could hone my own razors, bought a bunch of finer hones than those I used on carpenter tools, and went to work on an old Torrey, but was really frustrated when the edge deteriorated ahead of my honing. The crumbling was caused, I think, by old, weak steel as I finally got the thing to shavability. However, the old, inexpensive razor approach to getting some strokes down could have turned me off permanently had I not been challenged by the process and the total lack of cooperation on the part of the razor.

Fortunately Randy lives only a short way from me and I visited him with another razor - asking him if he would show me how he honed a razor to see if my Torrey experience was completely my ham-handedness or if the razor was partially complicit. It was about half and half.

I would be money ahead if I had spent the money I used to buy hones to buy honing services, but having spent the money on hones, I'm now stuck sharpening my own razors. The old saw about "the hurried you go the behinder you get" may be right.


Ah well, I just may try to make some swarf tonight; I hear a coticule calling. Apparently I haven't learned much.

wow. I keep forgetting that most people just want to shave. Is that it? Personally I have never understood the advice too often repeated. start with a shave ready and work backwards. Just because you took the advice and it happened to work doesn't make it the best. even a million times over.

Judging from the fact that most who post here do sharpen their own says to me there is more to straights than wanting to shave. We like to take care of things in a particular manner and do for ourselves... I think. Maybe it is only me.

I think it might actually be cheaper to have laser treatments to burn the beard off permanently. It does not matter to me if someone trying straight shaving gives up- they likely try lots of things and give them up as well when it is not painlessly easy.

Honing is easy though. We are not trying to teach ourselves to build helicopters or space ships or do inca masonry. So relatively speaking this is an easy thing. 1 month 2 (even less for many) and anyone can be making shaveable edges. (Some just dont want to I suppose but i do not understand that pov.)

Honing is easy; not like falling down or spilling a drink, you have to learn how and most of us teach ourselves with help reading and with how-to vids. If one is doing something wrong they are more likely to keep doing it if they cannot tell what is happening. With a fine stone it will be hard to see and know for sure. more garbage in info for the musscle memory machine. When you start at the beginning with 1k it is fairly straight forward and obvious that something is happening.

Start with a good quality, good condition, no warps, 4 or 5/8. 1, 5 and 8k sharpening stones. w/ lap and a roll of tape. A new, clean strop.

Everyone already has something to compare their edges to- the method of shaving they currently use. When your straight shaving is better than that you have started to skill-up.
Part of the problem is too much comparison, too much worry over having the best. In the end you only have what you got. Just use it and make it a great day. 600 dollar livi and 600 dollar nakayama or 60 dollar shumate and 60 dollar King are not too far removed when you know what you're doing....well that what i tell myself to make it through the day. But you have to start at the beginning right?

Originally Posted by ChrisL

One thing to be said for it though, when someone learns to effectively set a bevel, the rest is easy in comparison. What's better, then? Learning the hardest thing first or learning the hardest thing later? I think it depends on the person. Someone who is easily frustrated will all too often grab a crap razor, never set a proper bevel and throw in the towel. Others stick through the process of tearing out some hair, throwing a few razors against the wall tomahawk style and come through the other side proficient at honing their own razors.
Chris L

Like others said, you can get a good razor to learn to hone with, cheap, and it doesn't have to be crap. I picked up a couple very nice blades on Ebay CHEAP (less than $20 each shipped), and by that I mean not covered in rust, not warped to heck and back, and not in serious need of restoration. Compared to others, yes, I am still a "noob", and yes, I think setting the bevel properly is the biggest hump to overcome for people honing, but unless the blade is really warped, I by no means consider it "hard" to do.

I think the "hardest" part about it, from someone new to razors is the PATIENCE. I by no means expected to do a couple laps and have a set bevel by some miracle. If you can stay calm, and not in a hurry, setting the bevel can be a relaxing event, and not really "difficult" on a halfway decent blade.

I think too many new people expect to see instant results in a couple minutes, and then get frustrated and give up, or screw up. I think the videos and other articles in the Wiki have just about all the info you need to get a good bevel, but no article or video can teach someone to be patient and take their time. If you feel you are getting irritated at your progress, put the razor DOWN and walk away. It's not going anywhere...it will be there later when you have calmed down and are ready to continue.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I still think learning to strop without damaging the edge or strop should be a newbs biggest priority second to actual shaving but there is such a wealth of information available thru SRP etc that a good grounding in the principles of honing is not difficult to achieve if one does the research.

Good info Oni, but not everyone uses a leather strop. I don't, and at home, I doubt I will ever use one. I use the palm of my hand like in the Livi video. But even more so than stropping, I think the new persons biggest priority should be PATIENCE. Speed will come with time, and repetition...but when you're learning, you need to forget speed, and just take your time and get the basics right.

Originally Posted by Ookla

I think a lot of fellas jump into honing way too early. I thought I wanted to hone my own razors right off the bat, but common sense told me that my shaving and stropping should be in good order before I moved on to honing. How can you shave test a blade if you can't count on your technique? I sent out razors to the people of which I knew I could count on for a good edge. If you read here and hang out here, you can figure it out. It gave me a baseline for sharpness.

About 8 months in, I got a norton/coticule/c12k setup. It's not a vast barrage of sharpening instruments, but it works. At that time, I knew what to look for. I failed* a lot for a few months. A rogue piece of grit or a rotten off balance stroke could ruin my progress, but such is life. More important is the feel and the feedback you get. Now I am able to "communicate" more with the edge than I would have ever been able to do a year ago. It's a process. Whether you do it with a new razor or an old junker, you just have to do a lot** of strokes on a hone to learn the feel, feedback and sound of the edge.

*failed is a subjective term used to show that while the end product was not as intended, learning was accomplished.

**a lot of strokes to one person may be few to another, it is highly personal and definitely not an actual number.

Not sure that I totally agree with this, because everyone is different. I purchased my first shave ready razor from the Classifieds, and within a couple weeks, I had acquired a couple good name razors off Ebay, and the starter set of Norton Stones from Amazon.

I started learning to set the bevels, and after that (the patience and time was the hardest thing btw) the rest was cake.

I have since picked up probably 5 or so more razors, all of which I honed myself, and they all shave just as good, if not better than the one I bought on the Classifieds.

So, in my opinion, telling someone they are "starting too early" or shouldn't be doing that is not necessary, and a little condescending. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way either

Just like Ookla, I have "failed" on a few tries, but I took a step back, and started over again. On occasions where I was getting frustrated, I put it away for the night, had a drink and tried again the next day. I am by no means an expert, and may not be able to get a razor shave ready as fast as others, but I can do it. It takes patience, and time, and IMO, it's more rewarding than sending my razors out to be sharpened by someone else.

Granted, it's not for everyone, and a lot of people who try it, may decide it's not for them. But the classifieds are there for them to sell off their hones to those who have either been doing it for a while, or want to learn. They may not be brand new, but I'm sure someone would appreciate the deal, and encouragement.

Heck, we have monthly giveaways, why not occasionally have a PIF giveaway to help give someone that would like to try honing the opportunity, with the understanding that if they give up, or decide to get their own set, they return the hone so it can be sent out to another aspiring honer?

Whew, sorry, this was a bit longer than I intended

When I first started shaving with a straight I knew within 2 or 3 shaves that I was going to shave that way the rest of my life. I was lucky to have a couple shave ready razors and had decent shaves to start with. Knowing that, I immediately ordered the Norton System and I think the Spyderco's and after conquering the impatience that has been mentioned many times started to get shave ready razors on my own. I think if a newbie knows he is sure he is going to be shaving with a straight from now on it's time to dive into the world of honing right away. It will be frustrating at first because learning to hone is at least as hard or maybe harder to learn as shaving with a straight.

bj

Originally Posted by gssixgun

This to me is almost like teaching a kid to swim by tossing them in the deep end....

olol, thats the way I learnt ^^

thx for the advice tho!