Thread: The goal of polishing the edge?

Chris, like Eco I like the accordian comparison, it being a visual aid anyone can relate to. I have thought about this topic a lot and have written about it somewhat. Here is a bit more indulgent description of your simply elegant analogy.

I surmise that when a blade is abraded with intent, and metal is removed, the valleys and peaks are defined as scratches, the positive space being the peaks in the form of ridges and the valleys representing the negative space where the material was removed. This structure of valleys and peaks creates tiny angle forms and this micro triangulation on the surface of the blade gives the very edge of the blade where it falls off into space some rigidity.

Depending on the character of the abrasive the valleys and peaks will resemble irregular or regular size striations. As So-san has suggested the natural stones with their irregular grit composition will create valleys and peaks of differing heights and depths.

The way I figure it, if you can design and create a structure using triangulation as your geometry as a means for rigidity and with design incorporate mini triangles (with finer grit particles) next to the larger triangles, the larger triangles will gain strength by the association.

A couple follow up questions might be: after honing, additional stroping using finer and finer grits will polish the surface at the edge, but what else happens at the same time? Why take so much time to establish a "proper or correct" bevel on flattened stones only to refine that bevel on a medium so inconsistantly non-flat as a piece of leather?

Also the one factor in the mix that no matter how the edge is created is the burr. This is the bug-a-boo. Stropping may wear off the burr by alternating strokes on the two sides of the bevel, but at what cost to the geometry of the angle of the edge. Alx

Originally Posted by alx

.............A couple follow up questions might be: after honing, additional stroping using finer and finer grits will polish the surface at the edge, but what else happens at the same time? Why take so much time to establish a "proper or correct" bevel on flattened stones only to refine that bevel on a medium so inconsistantly non-flat as a piece of leather?
.......... Alx

I have had the same questions in my head. Seems to me that refining the edge on a 1/2 micron or 30K stone would be better than polishing on a pasted strop. Stick to hard surfaces if you want a keen edge. Soft surfaces will make a rounded surface Okay.... my rant is over.

A couple follow up questions might be: after honing, additional stroping using finer and finer grits will polish the surface at the edge, but what else happens at the same time? Why take so much time to establish a "proper or correct" bevel on flattened stones only to refine that bevel on a medium so inconsistantly non-flat as a piece of leather?

Great questions and response. I think, or more accurately I hope, that spending the time to establish that proper or perfect bevel on the stone will establish a better edge that can be maintained on the leather or other inconsistently non flat mediums. Would you agree? At the same time if the edge is not so perfect then pastes and additional stropping may in fact be a way of slightly overcoming these smallest of microscopic inaccuracies by polishing the very edge like you say. In effect, a sort of shortcut at the very end of polishing or restoring the edge for extremely sharp shaves.

Speaking of the what happens at the same time idea you mentioned, I have often wondered while making many laps: What would happen if I stubbornly and obsessively decided to do many, many passes on this grit until every single striation from the previous grit was removed. Would I be able to remove all of the previous scratches before the wire edge formed, i.e over-honing? This was the nature of my original question what should be the goal of polishing.

If we think of using the hone as a kind of mathematical function you can sort of think about the limit of the grit size as it becomes higher and higher. Clearly we are searching for the grit which maximizes the sharpness of the razor. So the hone is a function from grit size to sharpness so to speak, and our mission is to maximize the sharpness with the additional properties or constraints like stability, smoothness, durability, etc.

It really makes sense what you all are saying about the natural stones having the slight variations in grit resulting in "bundles of reinforced" striations on the edge. It would be interesting to find out if this is really reflected in objective experience.

Unfortunately, my high grit stones are synthetic Shapton 16 and 30 so I can't really find out if what you guys are saying really makes a difference, I guess it is time to save up some money for new hones.

Originally Posted by economica

Clearly we are searching for the grit which maximizes the sharpness of the razor.

Speaking for myself I am only searching for a close and comfortable shave with an edge that will stand up well to repeated use. There have been a couple of threads devoted to the question of whether a razor can be "too sharp." Then it seems to get into semantics.

A friend of mine likes edges that he refers to as scary sharp. He would get these edges off of a Shapton 16k followed by diamond paste. He didn't like the edge off of a coticule or an Escher because it wasn't scary sharp enough for him. I prefer the latter comfortable edge. So my quest is getting an edge that I personally like rather than shooting to attain the ultimate sharpness the blade is capable of. Nothing wrong with that if it is what a person wants though.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Speaking for myself I am only searching for a close and comfortable shave with an edge that will stand up well to repeated use. There have been a couple of threads devoted to the question of whether a razor can be "too sharp." Then it seems to get into semantics.

A friend of mine likes edges that he refers to as scary sharp. He would get these edges off of a Shapton 16k followed by diamond paste. He didn't like the edge off of a coticule or an Escher because it wasn't scary sharp enough for him. I prefer the latter comfortable edge. So my quest is getting an edge that I personally like rather than shooting to attain the ultimate sharpness the blade is capable of. Nothing wrong with that if it is what a person wants though.

I'm not sure about the semantics of how sharp is sharp, and I've refrained from weighing in on those discussions until now. However, I'm over all the tests, images, evenness in the bevel etc. All I care about is how it shaves. While edges that passe the tests and are polished can look nice, it's not a guarantee. I want an edge that shaves without applying pressure and is buttery smooth. I couldn't care less if it feels scary sharp or not. I want to be comfortable. Thus far in my honing journey, I've been very pleased with my Kiita for those results. I've got a coti on the way and potentially a dreamy Escher... YMMV, but I'm with Jimmy on this one

Yeah Jimmy you are probably absolutely right in looking for comfort rather than sharpness. I guess I'm also looking for the perfect compromise as well.

For me, I think maybe because I'm still relatively new to this, I sort of equate more sharpness to equalling better edge. This is because, so far as I have gone the sharper edges provide appreciably better shaves. Just going up from my 12K to the Shapton 16/30 was like minor league to the majors. The first 30K shave was like: HELL YEAH this a properly tuned tool capable of doing the job I want.

So where do I go from here? I would like to maintain the sharpness of my edge while obtaining some maximum of durability/longevity. I'm guessing after placing this post there are several options. Maybe stay on the current track and use pastes/stropping to maintain before rehoning. Or maybe using natural stones to achieve similar sharpness but for the complicated reasons mussed about previously may in fact provide more durable and less fragile edges. Hmmmm. ... a fork in the road.

I have found my smooth edges to be pretty easy to maintain using linen and horsehide. I've even been able to bring back slightly degrading edges with extended stropping...

Originally Posted by economica

Yeah Jimmy you are probably absolutely right in looking for comfort rather than sharpness. I guess I'm also looking for the perfect compromise as well.

Like some of us here you seem to approach honing as what Lynn calls it, a sport. That is certainly my approach to it. I am not just trying to get a better shave but also challenging myself and trying to improve my honing skills.

When talking about sharpness versus comfort I think of my fore mentioned friend. An edge I would find just fine wouldn't be worth a darn to him. Reminds me of shaving DE with a Derby as opposed to a Feather. I can get BBS with the Derby using good prep and stretching techniques and I don't get weepers or maybe a nick.

The Feather, OTOH, is scary sharp to me and will give me a bbs shave with less technique but I have to be a lot more careful to avoid razor burn, weepers, nicks. Then again all of this is all determined by our individual beard and skin types. I happen to be lucky to have fine hair on top and not too coarse on the whiskers.

Welcome to SRP! Sounds like you did your homework. Lots of good advice above as well as many points of view. There are no correct answers to your question cause we just don't know for sure. Some of us like the journey and experiment with honing from all angles. Some of us are just interested in the destination, an effortless clean shave. For ma, I am interested in the destination but do experiment from time to time. If I can get an effortless clean shave w/o feeling the hairs the hairs cut and leave the skin where it is I'm there. Polishing the edge on an Escher, C12k or the like gets me to that point. How far you take this is up to you. Journey or destination.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Joed

Welcome to SRP! Sounds like you did your homework. Lots of good advice above as well as many points of view. There are no correct answers to your question cause we just don't know for sure. Some of us like the journey and experiment with honing from all angles. Some of us are just interested in the destination, an effortless clean shave. For ma, I am interested in the destination but do experiment from time to time. If I can get an effortless clean shave w/o feeling the hairs the hairs cut and leave the skin where it is I'm there. Polishing the edge on an Escher, C12k or the like gets me to that point. How far you take this is up to you. Journey or destination.

Good luck!

I've been meaning to change my signature and this post made me go ahead and pull the trigger.. I'm on of those journey guys