Thread: which way should i go; just hope i dont get lost.

Originally Posted by IanS

Well, for starters because that's physically impossible...

I read once on the internets that it is possible, though. I'm sure it must be the maserati of honing.... Don't tell me you're only capable of using your fiat punto hones, you sound like a man fully capable to tell a good stuff when reading about it.

Olden:

Razors were designed with that honing method in mind. It may have passed out of favor, but it's still by far the most fundamental and simplest to perform honing pattern, and I feel certainly the easiest point to start at. Once you've successfully gotten a shave ready blade out of a razor simply moving it back and forth, you'll have developed a feel for what a sharpening razor and your stones response is like and be much more prepared to tackle the more complex patterns. Admittedly, a level X pattern is not much more difficult but doing so on a particularly narrow hone (most of the new stock coti's I see available under $200 are ~1.5" wide) is I believe introducing an unnecessary level of challenge to what is really a very basic and quick thing to pick up.

Stating that you've heard something that you've heard isn't bold at all. "Coticules are pieces of rock. They either work or they don't." If you don't read that as saying that the stones perform identically at their purpose, then you speak a different brand of English than I do.

I agree that coti's final edges will be largely linearly comparible. However if you actually read my original statement, that is never disputed, you're simply arguing with yourself. I stated that their is variance in performance of coticules. One may be better than another, whereas with a quality synthetic that will not be the case.

Your HAD guy comment is just you being argumentative.

"imho", "I've heard", "I personally have no experience with", "seems like", "probably", "In my opinion", "maybe my judgement is clouding", "more tenured members (will disagree) with plenty of good reasons",

If I put any more qualifiers into my posts drawing attention to my limited experience I might as well be one of you fellows who seem on a personal mission to discredit everything I say without actually offering any actual contridictions to my points. Would you like me to get you a trophy stating your excellence at shaving so you don't have to dog me to stroke your own ego in the future? There are places that can do that sort of thing.

BB:

It certainly doesn't. Which is why the first time I brought up Ideal size I qualified it with "imho" (in my humble opinion). You quoted my second use when I re-referenced the term. I actually am planning to purchase narrower hones in the near future. It doesn't change the fact that I'm glad I started on 2.5-3" ones, and again, imho, I consider that dimension stone ideal for a beginner.

I chose the comparison of norton 8k to coticule because those are the bulk of the apparent value between the OP's listed choices. An 8k costs damn near what the combo pack costs, and a Coticule costs quite close to what a Coti/BBW Epoxied combo costs, at least according to the places I've seen them sold.

I'm still not following you apparently. Either "a rock is a rock" or there is variance in the performance of the stones. These are mutually exclusive statements. The final edge isn't the only thing at issue. This is going to have to be abstracted to simplify the point, but to borrow the example gugi used (in a less farcical manner) just because a razor honed start to finish on a shapton 30k will have the same final edge as one honed on a series of stones from 1k on up to 30k doesn't make the 30k just as good of an option as the series. There are elements of performance and use that combine to give a general feeling for the quality of the stone by the user. And I've seen many comments from people having experience with multiple coticules, that this variance is there... whereas with a quality synthetic it should not be. That is all I was saying.

I disagree. I don't see a single attempt to engage any factual discussion in your post. You were in fact entirely engaged in commenting on the nature of my comments and the only statements you made that could be viewed under any sort of factual debate guise are apparently misunderstandings over what I had actually said.

I'd love to have more information on coticules and BBW, but I believe I have read Barts site, I would appreciate a link if I mistaken, but isn't it the one with the museum of stones where they describe the particular honing properties of each, as well as a brief summary of the final edge condition obtained?

My reason for responding to Gugi with such a tone was that he prefaced his main point with a statement suggesting that practice does not benefit skill. That's the point where I just go, "what?". Then he continued to make a deliberately ridiculous statement that contributed nothing to the discussion and was really quite unrelated to any point I was making. He drew the assumption that I was attesting that difficulty now WAS the final benefit I felt the Coticule option provided, when I feel I had made it perfectly clear that I was presenting the opinion that the final benefit of the Coticule option (mostly that of having a coticule and knowing how to use it) was DESPITE the increased intro difficulty. His tone was dismissive towards something I had never said, so I felt the only appropriate response was to point out how thoughtless and dismissive it was.


Neither option is Ideal for Lynn's purposes I'm sure. I'm equally sure either option are perfectly suitable for lynn's purposes, he simply has better options available to him. This is not a discussion of which would be better for Lynn or someone else honing thousands of razors. It would appear that OP is looking to become one of those honesters you mention. As such, the opinions of honesters as to what they'd prefer seems even more applicable than that of the guys who hone razors as a business and need the best and fastest methods available to them. In a situation where reliability and consistancy is key (professional honing) then I'm sure Synthetics shine. However I enjoy the act of honing, and naturals are simply more fun for me to hone on. There are other unquantifiable advantages I find in using them. And yes, the challenges involved are among them. I realize that Coticule/BBW are not the best bevel setters out there... but I've seen many reports of it being done, and a couple how to articles on doing it. It looks like something that is enjoyable. So as someone who restores a few eBay razors here and there, I offered my opinion to someone apparently looking forward to doing something similar.

Still - with apologies to the OP and a promise this will be my last interruption.

EDIT: what I wrote below is discourteous and has no place in a gentlemanly exchange. I take it back and apologize.


Just my 0.02$, but I've heard that last post too is full of factual errors, misguided attributions and spurious insinuations.

Originally Posted by IanS

one of you fellows who seem on a personal mission to discredit everything I say without actually offering any actual contridictions to my points

Sure. And please remember: majority is overrated. It sometimes simply means all the idiots incidentally stepped to the same side of a line.

Back to the original discussion, Nortons would be a good option because there is a vast amount of knowledge among the user base here as well as archived information. I've used them with good results. I've also come to really like my Shapton set which I have from 220-30K. Recently, I've acquired a Coticule that has been a lot of fun to play with, and I'm getting great results on it. I know that the Naniwas have a lot of fans, and guys who I respect are among them.

The point is that which stones you go with is less important than spending the appropriate amount of time learning how to use what you have. Best of luck in your decision. Honing has been both frustrating and a lot of fun.

OK, Ian, let me help you out here

Originally Posted by IanS

If I put any more qualifiers into my posts drawing attention to my limited experience I might as well be one of you fellows who seem on a personal mission to discredit everything I say without actually offering any actual contridictions to my points.

My mission is actually to ensure SRP provides real help, which means it has to be based on facts and experience, not on random opinion somebody just decided to have. There are plenty of forums where one can find perfectly well meaning opinions based on absolutely nothing, but whatever the opinionator decided by a toss of a mind coin. If you want to be in that category and just regurgitate whatever you've heard or read, instead of actually experiencing it first and speaking from experience, my guess is that you'll find this forum a tough audience.

As far as your actual argument of why coricule is the better option for the OP, I am yet at loss to find anything. You assert learning difficulty, but promise it is offset by superior results. But you have absolutely nothing to show for the second, so I'm left to assume that the benefit is in the learning hardship? Here point out for me what is the actual benefit of a coticule as you understand it and why does that make it more suitable for the OP:

Originally Posted by IanS

In my opinion the Nortons will be more immediately gratifying while the Coti set will pay off more in the long run.

I'm a big "character building"/"long term rewards" guy... like your cheesy father who makes you wear hand me downs and take a bag lunch to grade school while all the other kids parents buy them brand new "distressed" jeans and let them eat the cardboard fried chicken sandwiches the cafeteria serves.

You certainly feel your opinion would be dissenting with the majority of experienced people, yet you insist it is the right one

Originally Posted by IanS

I can say I expect most of the more tenured members will probably recommend the Nortons and with plenty of good reasons (what I've said above and likely more).

Finally 1770 words later you got to the essence of your argument:

Originally Posted by IanS

However I enjoy the act of honing, and naturals are simply more fun for me to hone on. There are other unquantifiable advantages I find in using them. And yes, the challenges involved are among them.

20% signal to noise ratio, I think you'd benefit from spending more time on the subject and less writing about it.

I didn't promise anything about the results. I made reference in passing to how for better than a century persons sharpening all manner of tools have considered natural stones a superior tool for most jobs based on god knows what, but the most substantive argument (that I've seen) being that the lack of uniformity in scarring provides a more resilient edge. While garnet size in cotis is (as I'm led to believe) approximately uniform, the cutting properties of embedded garnets variance in depth and exposed angles suggests to me that when used without slurry this property is maintained. These days there are Japanese Synths made with natural particles, I'd expect for this reason (though I may be mistaken on the reason).

That is all very convoluted and unnecessary information, which is why I left it as a brief mention in passing.

I'd argue that my point was clear enough in the original post, not 1700 words later. In fact you quoted the essence of it from the first post. You simply chose not to see it.

Your statement about the "right opinion" seems to misunderstand the entire concept of opinions. Perhaps that is the essence of our disagreement.

Originally Posted by IanS

I didn't promise anything about the results. I made reference in passing to how for better than a century persons sharpening all manner of tools have considered natural stones a superior tool for most jobs based on god knows what, but the most substantive argument (that I've seen) being that the lack of uniformity in scarring provides a more resilient edge. While garnet size in cotis is (as I'm led to believe) approximately uniform, the cutting properties of embedded garnets variance in depth and exposed angles suggests to me that when used without slurry this property is maintained. These days there are Japanese Synths made with natural particles, I'd expect for this reason (though I may be mistaken on the reason).

I don't know about the non-uniform part, but something to consider is that, compared to the length of time people have had to use and learn how to use naturals vs synthetics, and considering that, in the past, "sharpeners" would learn from "old-timers," the bias towards naturals is unsurprising. If you look at actual historical statements like "above 1k, naturals blow synthetics out of the water" and want to read into them, you should consider that Nortons, Shaptons, DMT's and Naniwas may not have even existed when those statements were made. The times, they are a'changing.

I would say that many of us interject our personal opinions and preferences when new guys ask for advice, and it is important to keep in mind that our preferences are our own, not those of whoever asks for help. Many of us also have opinions about the best way to learn something, and that is often based on our swn learning styles. Again, this may or may not be the learning style of the new guy. There are very few general statements that can be made. Maybe a "learning to hone" wiki is in order, so these needless disputes will stop. I'll gladly voulenteer to contribute to or write one next week. It will start with "In general, the more versitile the hone, the harder it is to get the best out of it. This is the one generalizaiton I find to be true."

while it seems that i have opened up a can of worms, it was not my intention, as for learning to hone, i am beginning to believe that for my own personal use, the nortons would be a good starting point. then to go from there, where ever that may lead then so be it, but with money being the main emphasis, again, the nortons are where i have to go to. i thank all for the information, and i hope i havent cause any hard feelings among the many posters here. on a side note, alan, i will get in touch with you when i have some free time, and am able to get away from the house. will get in touch with you when things slow down, will be glad when the freaking holidays are over.

Sounds good. You can come over and use the 220 and 1000 if you want instead of buying them. You'd use them only for big jobs.

A

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Sounds good. You can come over and use the 220 and 1000 if you want instead of buying them. You'd use them only for big jobs.

A

Whadda guy! That Norton 1k is a sweet cutter - she's saved me tons of time.