Thread: which way should i go; just hope i dont get lost.

I am planning on purchasing some hones when the eagle makes his yearly deposit into my bank account in feb. and im not really sure which way to go. have looked at the norton starter kit on amazon, and liked what i saw. but also read some on the belgian blue. so the question is, which way would be better. i have an escher i can use as a finisher, so that is not needing to be figured into the equasion

It really depends on what you are looking for. Good synthetics, like Nortons, are easier to learn on and should give you more consistant results and require less time on the hones. Naturals, like a Belgian Blue and a Coticule, are more versitile and give you more room to "play," but it can be more difficult and can take longer to obtain good results.

Within the realm of synthetic hones, there are a few to choose from. Some top picks are Nortons, Naniwa's, Shaptons, and DMT's (and any combination therein). Within the realm of naturals, there are many choices, with BBW and Coti (or just coti) being one popular pick. It would be nearly impossible to put together a list of all the natural hones, even if finishers were excluded. Within each realm, there are advantages and disadvantages to each hone.

In short, I think the Norton starter kit is a pretty good place to start. If money is a non-issue, then I would suggest Naniwas, but that is just my own personal preference based on my experience with Nortons and Naniwas. I can provide a fuller explanation of my choice if you would like.

Well


Norton stones are ideal size imho for most razors, are basically plug and play honing (One stone, then the next, then the next, etc) and are easy to find for a good price.

Coti/BBW set is less likely to be ideal size (without costing a ton, an 8x3 went fast in classies for like $265 this month). Most people feel gives a superior result (although by how much is debatable). Are less guaranteed (I've heard of "bad" coti's that aren't nearly as good as the stones reputation) and require more skill to use. I personally have no experience with them, but they are probably the most widely used natural here (seems like almost every HAD guy has one (or more) and has experience with them even if they don't use them much anymore... so support available probably won't be far behind the nortons (A big argument used here for the nortons is that so many members have used them, so support is widely available).

I'd recommend the Coti/BBW personally, because I believe you will eventually be glad you made that choice. In my opinion the Nortons will be more immediately gratifying while the Coti set will pay off more in the long run. Maybe my judgement is clouding by the fact that I actually want a Coti/BBW stone myself at the moment though.

I can say I expect most of the more tenured members will probably recommend the Nortons and with plenty of good reasons (what I've said above and likely more). I'm a big "character building"/"long term rewards" guy... like your cheesy father who makes you wear hand me downs and take a bag lunch to grade school while all the other kids parents buy them brand new "distressed" jeans and let them eat the cardboard fried chicken sandwiches the cafeteria serves.

Originally Posted by IanS

Most people feel gives a superior result (although by how much is debatable). Are less guaranteed (I've heard of "bad" coti's that aren't nearly as good as the stones reputation) and require more skill to use. I personally have no experience with them, but they are probably the most widely used natural here
....

I'd recommend the Coti/BBW personally, because I believe you will eventually be glad you made that choice.

Did you just recommend a product you have no experience whatsoever with? Why exactly do you think OP would be glad to make such choice is also unknown, if more work is what makes one proficient why not just strop the razor till it shaves?


In my opinion you have to start by figuring out
(1) what razors will you hone
(2) how easy do you want the learning process to be
(3) what intangibles are important to you

I've never driven a lamborghini diablo. I'd recommend it over a pinto based on what I know about the mechanics of the two and opinions I've heard of people who have driven them.

if more work is what makes one proficient

Did you really just type that?

why not just strop the razor till it shaves?

Well, for starters because that's physically impossible... this actually could have been followed by my previous question, but I don't like repetition.

Originally Posted by IanS

Coti/BBW set is less likely to be ideal size (without costing a ton, an 8x3 went fast in classies for like $265 this month).

Would you please define "ideal size"? My natural hones are 6x3 max and I'm perfectly fine by that. So I'd really like to learn from you what I am doing wrong here.

Originally Posted by IanS

Most people feel gives a superior result (although by how much is debatable).

Would you care to elaborate who "most people" are? Funnily, you will find that most professional honemeisters will prefer synthetic hones.

Originally Posted by IanS

Are less guaranteed (I've heard of "bad" coti's that aren't nearly as good as the stones reputation) and require more skill to use.

May I ask who offered you this particular pearl of wisdom? Coticules are pieces of rock. They either work, or they don't. You may want to pay Bart's excellent website a visit to obtain some expert information about the characteristics of various Coticules.

Originally Posted by IanS

I personally have no experience with them, but they are probably the most widely used natural here (seems like almost every HAD guy has one (or more) and has experience with them even if they don't use them much anymore... so support available probably won't be far behind the nortons (A big argument used here for the nortons is that so many members have used them, so support is widely available).

Ian, the use of pseudo-sociolect does not make what you say more credible. I can only guess what you mean by "HAD guy", but I am quite certain that I'd rather not be called that. In any event, I would suggest that you re-read gugi's reply, and take it to heart. This isn't B&B, meaning sprinkling "Coti", "Jnat" or (my personal favourite, because it contains 3 errors in one "word") "Thuri's" over half digested second hand knowledge will not turn you into an admired honester, but something else entirely.

Originally Posted by IanS

I'd recommend the Coti/BBW personally, because I believe you will eventually be glad you made that choice. In my opinion the Nortons will be more immediately gratifying while the Coti set will pay off more in the long run. Maybe my judgement is clouding by the fact that I actually want a Coti/BBW stone myself at the moment though.

I fully agree. Your judgement is indeed clouded, but apparently by a tangible lack of expert information. Visit Bart's website. And the decide if you still want a BBW. But in the meantime, please refrain from giving buying advice to beginners.

Regards,
Robin

Ideal size in my opinion is the size that allows almost any undamaged razor to be honed by simply moving it in a direct back and forth (or very close to it) motion. That is ~3" wide. For length, the ideal size is 8" which I expect is determined by some optimal height calculated with range of motion comfortably allowed and determined using cubits.


Most people are just that. If you really want to do a poll asking which is the better finisher between a Coti with water and a Norton 8k, feel free. We both know which will win, so I fail to see your purpose.

Pieces of rock are actually quite complex constructs. You may want to read up on chemistry, geology, and some other words that end in y. Stating that every example of a natural stone of a single type of rock will work identically is a bold statement. I'd honestly be surprised if a single person would agree with you on that. As for the exact members, I'd recommend you just search coticule. The most specific example that springs to mind is a post of a member with 17? cotis mentioning that he had 10 "vintages" including his worst and 4 "new" ones including one of his best. There were several other cases with related discussion that were less impressive and as such less fresh in my memory.

I use acronyms and abbreviations solely for the purposes of reducing keystrokes, I assure you. So no need to worry.

HAD guy = a person who purchases far more hones than he needs.

Thuri's: Help me out here because the only use of that word found by ctrl f is yours. If my browser is just incapable of finding my use of it though, it would refer to the stone (slate according to some sources) mined in Thuringia, which as I understand it is what the popular escher and similar german hones are made of.


In conclusion, I give my advice, feel free to give yours. I think the reader is more than capable to view our histories here and apply the appropriate amount of weight to each opinion given that and the tone they are given in without your vendettizing anything.

You are welcome to stop by my house and check out the Nortons if you would like.

I can teach you how to hone, too, if need be.

Originally Posted by IanS

Ideal size in my opinion is the size that allows almost any undamaged razor to be honed by simply moving it in a direct back and forth (or very close to it) motion. That is ~3" wide. For length, the ideal size is 8" which I expect is determined by some optimal height calculated with range of motion comfortably allowed and determined using cubits.

That definition is pretty useless then to determine which hone one should buy. It leaves aside the fact that a lot of razors are not 'undamaged', that narrow hones aid the new honer in honing warps or smiles. And who hones razors by 'simply moving (them) in a direct back and forth (...) motion'? That certainly is not the norm. Length is debatable likewise: for one who cannot make even long strokes or dislikes doing so a long hone is a waste as it will only be abraded unevenly and dish in the middle sooner. Your definition also does not address issues as price and availability, or how common this size is and therefore how likely it is to get help from people familiar with it.

Originally Posted by IanS

Pieces of rock are actually quite complex constructs. You may want to read up on chemistry, geology, and some other words that end in y.

Don't. Just don't.

Originally Posted by IanS

Stating that every example of a natural stone of a single type of rock will work identically is a bold statement.

Stating something about them without ever having used one may even be bolder. No one stated that all cotis are exactly the same, but those who have more than one and the experience would agree that they all do work alike.

Originally Posted by IanS

The most specific example that springs to mind is a post of a member with 17? cotis mentioning that he had 10 "vintages" including his worst and 4 "new" ones including one of his best. There were several other cases with related discussion that were less impressive and as such less fresh in my memory.

I am quite certain that the collector to whom you refer chose his words more carefully, and pointed out his coticules have slightly varying traits that require slightly varying modes of use to get the best out of each. He would furthermore have stated that 'best' or 'worst' reflect a personal opinion on speed or feeling or match with his razors or compatibility with his preferred honing style, and that to a fellow honer the judgement may be reversed. As it is, consensus is that any coticule hone, vintage like new, can be used to yield comparable and shaving sharp edges.

What would have been more relevant to write, is that consensus is that BBW is not a particularly interesting hone for straight shavers. It can be used with lather for touch ups, but is not a short list hone for any other sharpening stage.

Originally Posted by IanS

HAD guy = a person who purchases far more hones than he needs.

No one needs even a single hone. Any other line drawn here is arbitrary.

Originally Posted by IanS

In conclusion, I give my advice, feel free to give yours. I think the reader is more than capable to view our histories here and apply the appropriate amount of weight to each opinion given that and the tone they are given in without your vendettizing anything.

In my opinion you only add to the confusion. The inquiring newbie should not have to research the standing, background and experience of individual posters. Your style and wording could easily invoke far more trust than there is actual reliability.

My advice: rather than airing personal opinions (should I write speculations?) lacking the personal experience to back them up, you could better help by sharing your own adventures as a beginning razor honer, tribulations as well as successes.

Originally Posted by IanS

Ideal size in my opinion is the size that allows almost any undamaged razor to be honed by simply moving it in a direct back and forth (or very close to it) motion. That is ~3" wide.

That is, as you quite rightly said, your opinion. But just because you think that something is ideal does not make it so outside your own experience, does it?

Whether a simple back and forth motion is ideal seems also debatable. If that works for you, that's perfect. It would not work for me. Therefore, it cannot be truly ideal.

Originally Posted by IanS

If you really want to do a poll asking which is the better finisher between a Coti with water and a Norton 8k, feel free. We both know which will win, so I fail to see your purpose.

I am not entirely sure we both know that, Ian. I would feel slightly uncomfortable comparing apples to oranges. It can, of course, be done. But I think the results would be rather meaningless. May I ask why you chose this particular example (keeping in mind that you have not used a Coticule yet)?

Originally Posted by IanS

Stating that every example of a natural stone of a single type of rock will work identically is a bold statement. I'd honestly be surprised if a single person would agree with you on that.

As would I, Ian, as would I. Because I don't think I said that. While it may be convenient to misinterpret what I say for argument's sake, it makes you look less credible. I said that a hone will either work or not, and that you should visit Bart's site for the exact characteristics. I still think that is a good idea, as factual knowledge may help you present your personal opinions and views in a truly believable way.

Originally Posted by IanS

As for the exact members, I'd recommend you just search coticule. The most specific example that springs to mind is a post of a member with 17? cotis mentioning that. In conclusion, I give my advice, feel free to give yours. I think the reader is more than capable to view our histories here and apply the appropriate amount of weight to each opinion given that and the tone they are given in without your vendettizing anything.

And this is where, with all due respect, you err, Ian. A vendetta contains a personal element. But who you are is of absolutely no concern to me. I am simply pointing out factual errors, and misleading information provided by you to someone seeking reliable information.

To put things into perspective a little: This summer, Bart came over for a visit. He told me a lot of rather useful things about various hones. But the most useful thing he did was show me how he operates a Coticule. I actually learnt a lot from this. For example that there are slow and fast cutters; how different types of slurry affect the honing process considerably; or how a double bevel can deliver rather astonishing results. Well, I had read about these thinga before, having put them into the Wiki myself. But nothing beats first hand experience.

Now, what is "first hand experience" when it comes to razors? That completely depends on what you're trying to achieve. I find it remarkable that you are trying to ridicule gugi, because gugi made a simple point that effectively blows your line of "arguments" out of the water: "What problem are you trying to solve?". If, like Jo*l, all I ever had to do was refine factory bevels on newly acquired brand name razors, I'd likely be perfectly fine with a finishing hone (as an aside, it strikes me as odd how often the poor boy has to re-hone his own razors - I think he calls his well established process of trial and error "dialling in"). If I had to do large amounts of bevel setting work, a Coticule would be low on my wish list of hones.

Add to that the element of numbers, the problem with your recommendation becomes more obvious. There is a growing number of hobby honers (aptly christened "honesters" by their spiritual leader) who make wild statements based on experiences gathered during honing between 100 and 500 razors. Now, I have a rather accurate understanding of the number of razors honed by the few honemeisters SRP has the luck of having as active contributors, and the number of razors they have honed is "slightly" higher. I trust someone like Lynn to hone a razor on a piece of brick if required. And if he tells me that a Coticule is not ideal for his particular purposes, I believe him. "Personal purposes" being the key element here. When I started acquiring hones, 4 honemeisters gave me 4 different recommendations. Go figure.

Therefore, any recommendation should take this as the starting point. Which, incidentally, is why we put the point into the FAQ (cf "What hone(s) do I need").

I hope things are a little clearer now, Ian. If not, I really do recommend spending some time over at Bart's site - it has some excellent information on honing in general and with Coticules in particular.

Regards,
Robin