Thread: Issues with kitayama 12k

Hi all.

I was looking for some advice for using the kitayama 12k stone. I was looking to use it as a finishing hone after the 8k norton I use, but I've been having trouble with it. I can get the razor to pass the hanging hair test on the 8k, but then I take it to the kitayama for 5-10 strokes and every time I do, I dull the edge (it stops cutting hanging hairs). I tried it with the nagura slurry, with just water and I've even lapped the stone down so all the japanese writing was gone and I had a fresh surface and I still think I'm dulling it. Any advice? Thanks.

I've found a few sites saying that it's actually an 8k stone that has natural japanese stone bits ground into it and is supposedly able to go ~12k with slurry (the natural abrasive in the slurry is worn smaller with use). One review mentions "the same stone" being sold as 8k at some sites and 12k at others. Google kitayama 12000 and kitayama 12k and you'll see some of what I'm finding.

I certainly wouldn't trust HHT as a judge of edge finish, but that's just me. (Although I must say I've yet to see someone argue that X finisher is better than Y finisher because it passes HHT better.) It must work for some people... but even the wiki seems pretty vague about how to interpret it. And I'd love to see some video of it actually working properly without cuts several attempts in a row. That would be the most impressive thing I've seen here. Maybe you should shave or tpt to confirm that it is actually getting duller.

you need to learn how to use 8 k .stay on it until it will pass hht. Gl

Op's saying it does pass HHT off of the 8k, but then he uses the Kitayama and after a few passes on the kitayama it stops passing HHT and he can't get it to pass it again after that.

(At least that's what I understood him to be saying, please correct me if I'm misreading your post OP).

You have introduced to many variables at one time to figure out where the problem is or even if there is a problem...

First off the HHT is just not accurate enough a test to determine sharpness differences just as Ian already stated..
If you go back to the Wiki and re-read what Bart wrote in there about his version of the HHT what you will really find, is a road map of how to develop your own version... It takes almost as much practice to develop one that is accurate as learning to hone..
Just so you know, even switching the hair around in your hand can mess up an HHT..
You need to have a shaving stroke that tells you everything about sharpness...For instance, for me, mine is the ATG stroke on my neck, I can actually tell the difference between sharpness levels with that stroke...

Second some stones just don't follow the "rules" and can still be shaving sharp.. Naniwa SS do that, sometimes they follow the tests until 3k, then don't again until 12k after stropping
What I mean is they can fail every sharpness test you throw at them, after 3k but if you hone through and finish out the sequence you get an extremely smooth shaving razor that will also pass the HHT after you strop the 12k edge...

Third the use of slurry, at those grit levels slurry dulls the edge...
This is going to get complicated, but I will try and explain... Slurry is used to cut the bevel face, but it will dull the very edge of the razor.. This is why you use slurry, then use just water after on the same stone... Personally I never use slurry at that high a grit level, I have heard some people do, but to me it seems like they are trying to re-create the Pyramid method by using one stone...

I would do like Hi Bud GL/Sham said and take the razor to the best edge you can get on the 8k, then strop and test shave one side of your face or one test patch..
Then go to the 12k and do 15-20 perfect light water only laps re-strop and then do the same test patch on the other side of the face and see if there is an improvement.. If there seems to be, then you are on to something, and you can tweak the 12k into your routine ...

PS: Ian:
Mike Ratliff used to have a really nice vid of him doing an HHT up in his signature I checked and he took it down, but if you look at his website it might be on there still..www.thewellhonedrazor.com

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Third the use of slurry, at those grit levels slurry dulls the edge...

Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP
Kitayama is a weird stone, the grit breaks down from 8 to 12 K(allegedly) but the stone glazes easily and the feedback is somewhat questionable.
You might want to pm Lynn, I think he has used that stone, and ask him for advice.
My advice is if possible get a proven performer , 8k Super Stone/Shapton etc.

Welcome to SRP. This is an example of using a stone that not that many members have had firsthand experience with. One of the reasons that you'll see the Norton, Naniwa, or Shapton recommended more often than not .... aside from the fact they work well. So many of us have used them that we can relate our firsthand experience with them. Not so with more obscure stones such as the Kitayama.

Leaving the HHT aside, have you tried shave testing after finishing on the Kitayama ? Sometimes a finishing stone will smooth out striations to the point that they don't catch the hair and cut HHT as well as they did at a lower grit level. IOW, the razor may give a great shave even if it isn't passing HHT.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Jnats can be used with slurry and the edge does not dull. I realize that most people do not own those stones but I think its worth mentioning.
@ OP

I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

I started out with 4k/8k and 12k kitiyama as bob keyes hones all his razors and still does he recomended this to me. I did the same thing passed hht on 8k and then kiti 12k with only water 20 laps and i could not pass hht after i stroped hht came back . I was told it has somthing to do with your 12k smoothing the edge right out and the teeth carn't grab the hair somthing like that.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think you mis-read what I wrote, so I'll try again, The slurry will sharpen the sides of the bevel and polish the sides of the bevel ... BUT the slurry WILL dull the front of the edge... Therefore you will never get the sharpest edge from slurry, the sharpest, smoothest edges come from a water only stone, and on very rare occasion a dry stone but almost never one with slurry, on (MOST) stones...

Edit:
According to Sham who I do value his opinion, there are certain Japanese Naturals that do work with slurries, at very high grits...
So I stand corrected as there are stones I haven't tried, YET !!!, so I changed that to most stones...I am assuming that you guys are shaving off these without going to a clear water finish though... If you guys are doing clear water finish strokes after the slurry then I stand by my original statement... so somebody needs to clarify that for the OP.. Because now we have a bit of confusion...Also does anyone have the same Kitayama stone that can clarify what it does, for him???? When I messed with one I finished with clear water...

I do slurry only, and I find that with no slurry I do not get smoother edge.
I am getting a much finer stone and will see how it works then.
For synthetics if I use slurry its for faster work but I always finish with no slurry for finer edge.
I have not used Kitayama on razors but I did not like how it behaved with knives, it would glaze a lot and have average at best feedback.
I have seen Lynn mention Kitayama so I'd think he has experience with the stone.

@ O_S,
I might be wrong here but Kitayama much like natural stones leaves misty finish unlike any other synthetic stone @ that grit level that I have heard of. It is known to have added natural abrasives in it.