Thread: naniwa stones

It might be working for some but both Naniwa and Shapton Say DO NOT SOAK. So since they are the producers I would take that advice.

Originally Posted by TheBaron

What would make one stone better for a newbie than another. I can certainly understand that from a professional stand point there are probably many variable to consider in stone. However, I can only guess as I don't hone yet.

As for newbies I would assume that it is similar to a pool cue. Sure a pro could tell you if one cue is better than another based on preference, weight, design, shaft deflection, and numerous other attributes. Yet as a newbie billiard player you simply need something that is well constructed and consistently straight. This gives a newbie billiard player many options that will work well for cheap until they dial in their game a bit more.

Based on the same idea, I would assume that a newbie getting a Norton or niwana would be just as fine as a newbie doesn't have the experience to tell the difference in the performance between the two. Or is there some factor I don't understand that makes this analogy inapplicable for hones.

Well, first, the Naniwas have a better feel to them then the Nortons. I never liked using my Norton, but I like using my Naniwa. Second, they're on a different grit system, so the edge you get off a Naniwa 8k is finer then what you get off a Norton 8k. Third, I personally, and I think others, felt a need to get a better class of stone then the Norton after getting some experience. You really wouldn't have that need with the Naniwa. They really aren't that far apart in price, I think something like 15$, so it seems worth it to me. Fourth, I hated soaking stones, but I don't mind spritzing them-- but that might be another reason thats kind of personal.

The only reasons I might have reservations is I don't know if the 3k-8k jump is too large, and there is alot of documentation here regarding the Norton, and alot of people with experience with it. I'm sure someone else with more XP with these stones could say if that jump might be troublesome. Personally, I think it would probably be Ok.

The 3k to 8k jump is not too large; it has been posted about in a few other threads. I've done it, as have many others. It works, but I personally prefer the 5k and 8k.

Using your example is a great way to put it and also a great reason to get the Naniwa. They are much more consistent and one of the most consistent stones I have tried. So like having the straight Cue you get the same result every time so you get to learn what different strokes do. And the Chosera and the Shaptons would be the upgraded pool cue.

Originally Posted by TheBaron

What would make one stone better for a newbie than another. I can certainly understand that from a professional stand point there are probably many variable to consider in stone. However, I can only guess as I don't hone yet.

As for newbies I would assume that it is similar to a pool cue. Sure a pro could tell you if one cue is better than another based on preference, weight, design, shaft deflection, and numerous other attributes. Yet as a newbie billiard player you simply need something that is well constructed and consistently straight. This gives a newbie billiard player many options that will work well for cheap until they dial in their game a bit more.

Based on the same idea, I would assume that a newbie getting a Norton or niwana would be just as fine as a newbie doesn't have the experience to tell the difference in the performance between the two. Or is there some factor I don't understand that makes this analogy inapplicable for hones.

As a honing newb I have tried only a few stones (in comparison to say, Lynn or Jimmy) but I have used the 1k 4k 8k Norton (a couple times at meets) and the 1k 3k 5k Naniwa (which I own) and while I can't make sweeping statements I will +1 Don and Jimmy- the Naniwas feel a lot better and the grits I mentioned seem to do the same thing.

With regards to Jnats. LOL. How can a picture help, when the Jnat actively obscures the finish? When I get a shaving sharp off my Thury it is mirror shiny, when I get shaving sharp off my Nakayama (bought from 330mate) it is dull and looks terrible in comparison. But it is not terrible. Its cus we are trained that shiny=good, whereas the hazy finish from a jnat=good to a Japanese sharpener (this saught after haze is called kazumi). How can picture comparisons help if stones PROVIDE DIFFERENT LOOKING FINISHES, AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN? Sure maybe pictures of edges off of two Asagi's could be compared, but as I just said one can't begin to compare picture from the Jnat (Nakayama) to a Thury (Escher).

One more thing I want to say is 330mate is temperamental, but if you are PATIENT and RESPECTFUL he is helpful. He handpicked my stone for me, it cost extra, but the damage was still only $110 for a 10x2 finisher. He also handpicked a few karasu for me to choose from, but I ended up not buying because of funds and this irritated him (I wasted his time basically) and only recently has he been receptive to communicating with me. He is a wholesaler after all.

Finally, I'm probably gonna roll the dice too because I want another Jnat and I'm not too picky, but paying $xx and crossing your fingers is not a good way to get THE PERFECT STONE. As Holli said, you're sure to get a good rock out of it, though it might not be what you hoped for. Surprised? You shouldn't be your rolled the dice. If you want a good stone, here's what you do. Reply to one of his random stone auctions, say the 22.22 one and say, I'll pay $40 for a hand picked one of these, or something like that. And yes $40 is twice the price but its still damn cheap and look at it as stacking your odds. Instead of gambling twice, you are getting a sure fire rock. And because it is twice the price, he is willing to help.

Originally Posted by Pete_S

I like that you can use the sides on the thicker ones, and that you also have two full 3x8 sides to use, so you can go twice as long without needing to refresh the surface. Not trying to drive business from your website or anything, I think the Naniwa combo should replace the norton as the "recommended newbie stone", myself.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about Pete, but I will certainly bow to your expertise and personal preferences.

Thanks,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Pete_S

Not trying to drive business from your website or anything, I think the Naniwa combo should replace the norton as the "recommended newbie stone", myself.

Straight Razor Designs sells and promotes the Naniwa combo, not the Norton one.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Straight Razor Designs sells and promotes the Naniwa combo, not the Norton one.

Thank you Pete!

SRD is not posting here, I am.

This is the kind of information or statement that when I see it in the forums it drives me crazy. I still use the Norton 4K/8K quite a bit and continue to recommend this stone to people. I have used the Naniwa 3K/8K combo, but typically recommend the 5K and 8K stones as that is the progression that works best for me. Others like the 3k/8K better.

If you have a meaningful point to make or would like to discuss all the stones I have and my honing routines, feel free to send a PM and I'll send you my phone number for an in depth discussion..

Have fun,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

Thank you Pete!

SRD is not posting here, I am.

This is the kind of information or statement that when I see it in the forums it drives me crazy. I still use the Norton 4K/8K quite a bit and continue to recommend this stone to people. I have used the Naniwa 3K/8K combo, but typically recommend the 5K and 8K stones as that is the progression that works best for me. Others like the 3k/8K better.

If you have a meaningful point to make or would like to discuss all the stones I have and my honing routines, feel free to send a PM and I'll send you my phone number for an in depth discussion..

Have fun,

Lynn

I'm sorry, I think I've caused some unintentional confusion here. The misleading statement about what SRD "promotes" was my mistake, not Pete's.

Pete stated his preference for the Naniwa 3/8 combo over the Norton 4/8, but seemed to think this put him at odds with SRD. I was merely pointing out that SRD in fact sells the Naniwa, not the Norton, so there was no need for him to worry that stating this preference would "drive business from [SRD]."

I shouldn't have made it sound like I could speak for your preferences. I use neither Nortons nor Naniwas, and certainly didn't mean to imply any preference of my own. Sorry about this Lynn.

Originally Posted by Pete_S

Well, first, the Naniwas have a better feel to them then the Nortons. I never liked using my Norton, but I like using my Naniwa. Second, they're on a different grit system, so the edge you get off a Naniwa 8k is finer then what you get off a Norton 8k. Third, I personally, and I think others, felt a need to get a better class of stone then the Norton after getting some experience. You really wouldn't have that need with the Naniwa. They really aren't that far apart in price, I think something like 15$, so it seems worth it to me. Fourth, I hated soaking stones, but I don't mind spritzing them-- but that might be another reason thats kind of personal.

The only reasons I might have reservations is I don't know if the 3k-8k jump is too large, and there is alot of documentation here regarding the Norton, and alot of people with experience with it. I'm sure someone else with more XP with these stones could say if that jump might be troublesome. Personally, I think it would probably be Ok.

This thread has some interesting conversation but is addressing the journey in honing not where the rubber meets the road. Of course it is the honers preference which path they take as eventually you will be able to acquire the desired end results with any of the products discussed in this thread. As a Tool and Die Maker w/ 20+ yrs experience I would suggest focusing on where the rubber meets the road which is achieving the end results w/ the least amount of effort, removing metal.

The hones mentioned in this thread use different grit binders and different grits. The best hones to use should be based on the hardness of the razor at hand. The binders used in the hones being discussed have different shear strengths and the grits have a different hardness and were designed to address a specific cutting application.

I use a Norton 4k for my test of hones to use. If the hone loads up quickly the binder is too hard for the steel hardness and I move to a hone that has a weaker shear strength. If the hone produces a slurry move to a hone that has a stronger shear strength. Using a stronger bonding agent in your hone and which will load up the hone quickly may produce microchips from rubbing metal to metal and/or by exceeding the shear strength of the metal and ripping not cutting the metal away. Producing a slurry while honing will round the edge and impede your goad if a perfect edge as well as prolong your honing session.

Nortons are still the best all around hone to recommend to beginners because they perform consistently on a wide range of metal hardnesses. As you/our experience with honing increases we will be able to generalize which hone will perform best by brand/origin of the razor. There will always be razors that fall out of this generalization due to the heat threating methods used and the natural variations that resulted due to process control.

In the end all products in this thread are quality tools. Match the tool to the work and not the work to the tool and you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.

Good luck