Thread: bevel problems

I have been having a hell of a time getting my bevel set to the point that I can move on. My first try I moved ahead a little soon I think, since I had a Jnat I was trying to get to, big mistake. Then when I realized that I wasnt doing much good even with a good slurry, and upon prompting from a few of the esteemed members here, I decided to drop back to my 1k norton. My bevel is even on both sides, it grabs my wet thumbnail pretty good(has drag but no bumps, feels really smooth) all along the bevel and yet no matter what I do I can not get it to shave my arm so that I can move forward, the TPT still doesnt feel very sticky either though, it actually feels dull. I have tried 20 laps and rechecked then did 20 more and rechecked all to no avail, I am probably at 200 laps now after returning to the 1k, probably had that many the first time before I moved ahead. Before I decided to move back it was shaving my arm a little, and if I lightly flicked the edge the razor would really sing but never got anywhere near the point I felt I should try a test shave, the TPT was sticky but not as sticky as a razor blade I was using as a reference. I am starting to worry about excessive hone wear with all the laps ive been making. Should I just keep going until it will shave before moving on, maybe put a layer of tape on to keep the wear down? It sure seems like the razor was sharper last time I moved forward even though it was premature. It is a smiling blade so I have been using a 45 deg. heel forward stroke with a slight rocking motion to make sure to make contact with the whole edge. Any ideas, suggestions?

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

It is a smiling blade so I have been using a 45 deg. heel forward stroke with a slight rocking motion to make sure to make contact with the whole edge. Any ideas, suggestions?

I really hope this is not your first attempt at honing in fact I hope this isn't your 10th...

Are we also to assume that this is a heavy blade as in 1/2 hollow or more...???

Actually what kind of razor is this????

When you find the razor gets duller instead of sharper you have overhoned it. An overhoned edge becomes brittle, little bits fall off and you are left with a jagged edge.
In the help files there is some information about pyramids and back honing: read and digest that before you move on.

A thought I have from my "experience" (maybe someone can learn something from my suckilage at honing)...

If you are trying too hard to get that bevel, or polish the bevel you might be using too much pressure. I found this to be a problem for me recently, I'd just get a good bevel and then move up a grit only to destroy the bevel I had made by using too much pressure and slightly lifting the spine (which rolls / curves the edge a bit)

Days like this are why I am glad that I began using one layer of tape on the spine for all of the razors I honed for the first year or more. Have you done a marker test to see if your edge is making contact with the hone for it's length with the stroke you are using ?

If you have an eye loupe or microscope it is helpful in seeing what is going on. I once got a passing TNT and upon examination with a 30x eye loupe the edge was a bit jagged. Needed more work. How is your pressure ? You need a bit in setting a bevel but not too much. Weight of the blade will take forever and a day at that stage but too much may deform the edge and make matters worse. Delicate balance, honing.

Lynn's circles seen here might get you out of the woods.

Was the razor sharp at all when you got it? If so, it could be a too-steep factory bevel w/ the edge not even making contact w/ the hone. That would take a bevel reset to fix. A marker test could help.

If you do need to reset the bevel (not sure what kind of bevel setter you have), you might want to dull the edge on a piece of glass (never more than the weight of the blade) so you don't get a false positive on the TPT. (When you do get stickiness, you'll know it's the new bevel & not the old one.)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I really hope this is not your first attempt at honing in fact I hope this isn't your 10th...

Are we also to assume that this is a heavy blade as in 1/2 hollow or more...???

Actually what kind of razor is this????

This is my first attempt at honing, actually about my fourth or fifth try at honing this same razor. I have actually been working on it for quite a while off and on, I guess thats what happens when you already have two shave ready razors there really isnt a reason to get into too big of a hurry. This is the same razor that I had a thread about the disapearing bevel awhile back. I had moved on prematurely and still had a concave bevel instead of a good flat bevel. I played on my jnats for a while, with slurry and without, and I think it was you who told me to quit messing around and move back and set a proper bevel. It is a smiling, H. Boker in a 1/2 to 3/4 hollow grind(Im not sure one way or the other for sure). My first attempt I cheated a little with the arm shave test off the 1K and decided to move on, I did two full pyramids, then went to my jnats. After a bit I realized I wasnt doing any good so I played with slurry and that was when I noticed my bevel was shrinking(more refined, confirming that I did indeed move ahead way early). I played with it once more on the jnat with slurry then finally took your advice and moved back to the 1k. I did about 100 laps yesterday and another 100 today and I dont seem to be making any improvement. The edge looks pretty good in my scope, no chips, and even and I didnt notice a foil edge like it was overhoned. Correct me if im wrong but I thought you said for beginners it was better to use the 45 deg heel forward stroke on smiling edges instead of the rolling x-stroke since there is less of a chance to roll the edge, so that has been the stroke I have been using the last couple of days. But when I do even that stroke I have had to kind of rock the blade to get the whole edge to make contact. Am I doing everything wrong, or is there hope for me yet?

Actually it sounds like yer doing everything right...

First, just stop doing laps it aint working, so stop

Take Jimmy's advice and lets get you doing Lynn's 40 circles rountine because the laps are not working...

Same 45 degree angle 1 layer of electrical tape on the spine Norton 1k,,, Do 20 circles down the hone using pressure, do 20 back up the hone...

Rinse the hone check the tape if worn replace it, do 20 circles down using light pressure, do 20 back up the hone...

Rinse the hone do 10 perfect x strokes very light pressure check the arm hair test from toe to heel....NO CHEATING... stop and report the test results here

The razor should be popping arm hair at the skin level with ease...

Info here for everyone, 100 laps is way to much (maybe not on a CH12k) on most every stone, if you have done that many laps, and you are not getting someplace just stop, you need to change something up...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Info here for everyone, 100 laps is way to much (maybe on a CH12k) on most every stone, if you have done that many laps, and you are not getting someplace just stop, you need to change something up...

Now you're telling me, after doing hundreds to hone a friodur...

(Don't freak 'everyone' I wanted to know exactly how much work it is to hone one of these with a factory edge using nothing coarser than naniwa 5000.)

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Days like this are why I am glad that I began using one layer of tape on the spine for all of the razors I honed for the first year or more. Have you done a marker test to see if your edge is making contact with the hone for it's length with the stroke you are using ?

If you have an eye loupe or microscope it is helpful in seeing what is going on. I once got a passing TNT and upon examination with a 30x eye loupe the edge was a bit jagged. Needed more work. How is your pressure ? You need a bit in setting a bevel but not too much. Weight of the blade will take forever and a day at that stage but too much may deform the edge and make matters worse. Delicate balance, honing.

Lynn's circles seen here might get you out of the woods.

I do wish I would have started out with tape, I dont know why you have to rub it in though. I did the marker test a ways back and it looked good, after I read your post I figured I had better double check. When I used the stroke I have been using the whole bevel gets cleaned, then I tried it with the circles and on one side the whole bevel except for about the first(heel) 1/4 inch of one side got cleaned off and then on the other side there was about 1/8 of an inch on both ends of the bevel that still had marker on them. The blade Lynn honed in the vids was a straight edge, will the circles work on a smiling edge? I havent used much pressure up till now, just enough to keep the edge on the stone, maybe I just havent spent enough time, but it sure seems like a long time to me(what do I know though, im a rookie). This razor is one I really want to use, it supposedly has some history to it, but I am afraid I am ruining it. I have another ebay razor that doesnt smile, I probably should set this one aside and practice on it, but ive never been one to back away from a challenge even though sometimes that leads to my detriment.