Thread: Why Pyramid?

You guys have been really busy while I was gone!

This has been a really great thread. Superfly, thanks for the links! The large PDF on Metallurgy will take me some time to read but will complement a book on steel hardening that I am reading (the book was written in 1913).

As usual this forum is the best!

mu pleasure...

Now just to translate and convert to .pdf a book on metalurgy and material treatments that my friend, university professor wrote

Nenad

seriosely, there are a lot of nice stuff there, among others tempering method with bypassing the martensitic steel structure, going directly to perlite, your favorite razor's steel... You guessed it, the TI lead tempering process.

The book I am reading, written in 1913, titled
STEEL
Its Selection, Annealing, Hardening and Tempering
by Markham
The Norman W. Henley Publishing Co.
Fourth Revised Edition

talks about a number of methods of hardening and tempering.

One of them is the use of molten lead. Its primary benefit is to eliminate the loss of carbon in the blade. Other methods were to use mercury(preferred but to expensive), cyanide, and a charred leather concoction.

A very interesting read.

Originally Posted by superfly

mu pleasure...

Now just to translate and convert to .pdf a book on metalurgy and material treatments that my friend, university professor wrote

Nenad

seriosely, there are a lot of nice stuff there, among others tempering method with bypassing the martensitic steel structure, going directly to perlite, your favorite razor's steel... You guessed it, the TI lead tempering process.

the loss of carbon is actually due to it burning off in an oxygen atmosphere. Most tool makers will wrap what they are heat treating in a foil to keep oxygen away and will often put a peace of paper inside so that the carbon in the paper burns rather than the carbon in the steel.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I propose a new pyramid, that being

3/1
2/1
1/1
1/2
1/3

Well my shavers were beginning to slip a bit so I took them all to the hone (except the ones I got back from Lynn), even the Böker that I was playing with over the course of this thread since the tip was slightly sub-standard. The Böker jumped up very well almost instantly. The other 4 which were not responding very well to the standard pyramid, responded very well to this neew proposition. They responded even better when I started with a few pounds of pressure and gradually eased off to none. When I say 'responded' I'm referring to the hanging hair test. The shave test is the ultimate test so I'll have to let you know how they're really doing in a bit, but so far, I have to say it looks good.

X

I think you'll find the cutting abilities striking. The whiskers will be mowed down. But I think you'll find the blade may be a touch too "intense". You'll feel a little more irritation than usual. You can allow your face to adjust or find another method to smooth it out just a touch. More stropping (or just shave and strop as normal) or a few (and I strongly caution you against a higher number) passes on something finer then more stropping. Perhaps stropping with a tad of pressure. These are not fragile edges. I'd also like you to notice how long the edges last. Take note of that too please.


Let us know what you think . . .

Update: I've been honing some more today and am having great success on a 4/4 to 4/6 ratio.

I did that new aggressive pyramid just as you recommend. I was only going to do it on my Böker, but my other razors needed refreshing and the standard short pyramid wasn't quite getting the response I wanted so I took them all through the 3/1, 2/1, 1/1, 1/2, 1/3 run. All 4 blades got a very light finish with just 3 laps on the 12,000 Sharpton and 20 laps on the Chromium Oxide stick on my pocket paddle strop. Not much of a finish, but I wanted to be sure I was assessing the new pyramid and not the finishing touches.

The Böker which was already shaving well and only needed a touch up did shave a little scratchy, but man did it shave. Cut through whiskers like a hot knife through butter. The scratchiness isn't even a big issue because the edge cuts SO well that no pressure is needed at all on my face. This is a great approach for guys who have coarse beards or perhaps as you suggest for guys who are having stropping issues with knocking the edge off like yours truly. Quite an intense edge and very effective. I think I'll actually take the Böker to the 8k for 1(one) more pass just to ease it up to where my other razors are.

I used my Duble Duck to trim around the goatee on Monday and Tuesday and it shaved extremely well with no scratching feel that I could notice, but that was just a trim on the kneck and sides so I might notice more with a full shave.

Shaved with the Wade & Butcher this morning and got another super close and effortless shave with less scratching than the Böker.

My thinking now is that all that would be needed to make this a better experience would be a final 1/4 and perhaps twice as much work on the higher grits.

Thanks for this suggestion. I have a new perspective on getting great shaving edges now, but it does make me wonder about the original question in the post, why pyramid? Perhaps the best thing would simply be to have a 6000 grit stone and ignore anything else. Maybe even with the 6k we could benefit from a smoothing on higher grits. Whatever the answer is on the higher grits I'm more certain than ever that it's the medium grit which gives the shave and the fine grit which makes it comfortable. Anybody else?

X

Originally Posted by xman

I'm more certain than ever that it's the medium grit which gives the shave and the fine grit which makes it comfortable. Anybody else?

If what you mean is that you could get a razor shaving sharp on a medium stone, but the fine stone adds to the comfort, I think that's pretty well accepted. However, the finer stone adds to the comfort not only by polishing or smoothing the edge but by making it sharper. That smoothness happens not jus because a smoother surface is rubbing against you skin, but because the whiskers are being cut more easily.

In classic knife sharpening there is a tradeoff between using a coarser grit to get a durable edge and using a finer grit to get easier cutting but shorter life on the edge. Razors sre not a particularly demanding use for an edge, so we go for maximum sharpness. You could go for less and get a more durable edge at the expense of comfort.

The scratchiness you mentioned is one sign of a wire edge or a weak edge (too fine). The wire edge is the extreme of the weak edge. You could go for extremely fine grits and come up with a super fine edge, which you will have to touch up more frequently to maintain. The wire edge is an end burr, which may shave well for a bit but then becomes bent or breaks off and feels scratchy, losing its sharpnes.

This scratchy feeling was NOT a wir edge. We've just gone down that road and there's no need to go back. What I created was a VERY sharp and I assume very dureable cutting edge that was just a bit too coarse to be perfectly comfortable. It's harder to imagine an easier shave actually. It was effortless. That's plenty sharp enough, just not quite comfortable enough.

By your own admission, finer edges are less durable and will dull sooner than these edges I have just made. I refer you back to my original comment about a deeper complex edge (A"^"^"A"^"^"A) being the best of both worlds.

X

Pretty cool huh? Makes you really re-evaluate your thoughts on the best ratio between the two factors. You should see what that edge can do to a 10 day growth. High cutting ability and then adjust to the minimum comfort level needed. Interesting huh? I believe its a very different type of shave. Just more fun . . but it can also change the way you feel about a razors cutting characteristics. But be careful, pretty soon you'll start seeing evidence of striations, fins, letting the blade rest, and all kinds of stuff no one else will ever believe. :-) You can just PM me, you don't have to talk about it in the open if you don't want to. LOL